The Weasel Museum Of SOTF History

[Grand Moff Hissa]

[+] The General SOTF Discussion Thread Part Seven

My biggest regret in SOTF is not taking the escape offer with Steve, or going with a proposed idea for Steve that I think could have worked well if I had the right people around me to pull it off. Originally Gabe was going to be injured badly by someone/thing requiring Steve to have to search for medical supplies. He was going to find the group at the armory, realize what was happening and book it back to Gabe hoping to get them both off the island. Steve and Gabe would slowly make their way back to the armory only to find the rubble from the fighting that occured, and realize that they missed the escape boats. From there it would have played out pretty much the same it did. Gabe dying, Steve running into Ryan, the building collapsing on them, etc.

I just think it would have added an interesting layer to have my character, who held some promience and popularity, quite literally miss the boat.


Here is my question for you people:

How do you feel overall about the settings of SOTF games so far? The layouts of the islands, etc.? Is there anything you're hoping to see included in the future (V5 and so on)?

I don't have any big regrets yet, but I haven't really had time to develop them yet. I'm sure I'll have some regrets after v5.

How I create characters though is, well, with all the characters I have I simply started with a very basic idea and went from there, and just tried not to go in a completely cliche direction. Basically, the original concepts I had for Mallory, Naomi and Joe were "butch girl," "charismatic guy" (yes, Naomi was originally planned to be male, so she would have basically been Miles xD, but switched her to a girl pretty quickly) and "stoner guy." And then I just went from there. I find that I can't really do any sort of inserts, even though they of course pick up traits of random people.

Responding late to Vole's complaint about pre-game; I actually don't like pre-game very much. For me, what's interesting is the island, and I think my characters can tell a stronger story if their backstories are somewhat amorphous. If I want to have some pre-existing relationship with a character (for instance, the weird love/hate thing between Garrett/Mirabelle that literally developed out of nowhere), I can write it and then expand on it later in Memories. The more defined their backstory is, the more limited their possibilities are, island-side. And island-side is what interests me, as well as the potential story. I'd rather have a murky character who starts to blossom as time goes on then a well-defined possibility too limited by their already-existing backstory.

As for regrets...

Naoko Raidon: I'm very proud of Raidon. That said, I think there's more I could have done with him in the post-Maxwell phase. He had finally and fully left his villainous ways and was looking to be a better man, and I don't think he ever quite reached it. The conversation with Charlie and his death are things I'm still proud of, but they're bright spots it what's otherwise a fairly-muddled career. Because I'm so generally satisfied with him, these sours notes ring harsh.

David Meramac: I had some interesting ideas for David, all of which I completely forgot about as I made him run in terror from one place to another before unceremoniously killing him. I think David was actually a fairly realistic rendition of what someone like me would do on the Island, which did not necessarily make for a good story.

Mirabelle Nesa: It was great fun killing her the way I did, thanks in large part to Vole. But I would've liked to have her ride off with Garrett, and maybe get her collar disabled and join up with STAR or something. I'd also like to have chased down Samantha Ridley.

Simon Grey: Simon is without a doubt my biggest source of regret when it comes to V4. I don't know exactly why I got bored with him--I think I just hadn't hit my stride, or figured out his dynamic quite right. I think Simon could have been a much better character than he was, and he was largely wasted because I didn't have the interest or the talent to make him work.

Ooh, man. Character creation. I could talk about this one for ages.

I have a method of character creation that, as I understand it, is somewhat odd. I start with very, very nebulous concepts. Often, these come either from a dare or from something I notice a lack of. I can't really recall how I came up with my first character, except that I used a good deal of stuff I knew so as to stay realistic. After that, though, I just went with rough ideas. Jennifer started as "Why doesn't Bayview have any minority kids?" crossed with "I should probably write a girl." Everett was "V4 needs someone overweight." Kimberly was "Why are the only Asian people in SOTF Chinese/Japanese?" with a hint of "Everyone writes teen parents but nobody writes their kids."

After I get a rough concept down, I basically brainstorm a lot but don't write anything at all down until I decide to start the profile. At that point, I wait until inspiration strikes or until my stalling is posing a danger of messing someone else up. At that point, I sit down and do as much as I can in one go.

I basically write a profile, hitting on whatever the most important of my vague ideas are, and see what develops. Inspiration, for me, comes in the moment. Often what I end up with bears little resemblance to what I'd originally envisioned (as anyone I discussed V5 concepts with knows ><).

I've shaken that method up once or twice. The most notably was on Mini when I had a very, very specific design for a character in game (yay dares!) and wrote an entire profile to make that end make sense. It was fun, and in some ways easier, and I was pleased with the results, but it's not really something I could replicate reliably.

So, long story short: I get a very rough idea, then stare at a blank page until inspiration arrives.

To Dan's question: I can't really fairly answer, being staff and all, except to say all the stuff I've not been involved with has left me super impressed. I think of the four islands we've had so far the V2 and V3 ones probably grasped my interest the most, in large part because of their overriding themes. V2 was very urban and decrepit, which was quite unique. V3, the jungle was positively pervasive, and shaped the feel of almost every scene to some degree.

Half the time my character concepts come from making a character around an interest of mine.

For example, my MMA training led to Ray (Wrestler), Bryant (Boxer) Katy (Judoka), and Paulo (Tapout Douchebag). When I was writing Lily I was working on my Journalism minor. Some of my second generation of characters had gone less off of that'ish. I have no inclinations toward prestidigitation, film-making, or basketball, yet Leona, Anthony, and Mason exist.

How do you guys reach stylistic choices in your writing? Is it a conscious effort, or do you just do what works?

Sometimes my posting style is considered sparse. It's half because I don't like lots of words, and half because I'm a lazy fuck.

With me, I usually find a trait I like and go "Hey, wouldn't this look cool on an SOTF character?". Some of these are things I have/had an interest in, even if passing. In fact, most of my characters share at least one interest I either currently have or I had in the past (for example, I tend to prefer science fiction/fantasy in my media and was interested in law/criminology when I was younger; in addition, my brother recently got a degree in Criminal Justice. I'm kind of a weeaboo, as we all know, and I do find fashion stuff vaguely interesting. Finally, I have shown furry-ish tendencies in the past and am somewhat interested in activism). Generally, I just go "Hey! Let's do this! It'll be cool! : D"

Sometimes these thoughts get a little more complex, like I go "I want to create this sort of archetype, but I want to do something radically different no one else has done!". For example, Miranda Millers and the "alpha bitch" archetype, and I'm working on a concept (probably for Program v2) that is my attempt to do something different with the stereotypical "flirty promiscuous girl" we often see in SOTF. I love playing with archetypes and tropes, and often I try my damned hardest to write something and go and subvert them in some way or another.

And sometimes I create characters based off of meta reactions I see from handlers. For example, I noticed a startling anti-Asian sentiment in handlers, that sometimes went beyond "Why are there so many Asians? It seems weird". So I made an Asian person, just so say "Screw you, your complaining made me make one. : D" And so I made Katie Tanaka. Alex Ripley is another example of this, to be honest, but that's another topic that can get kind of lengthy and I don't feel like explaining right now. Maybe later, chaps.

Also, at least twice I've made pre-existing characters into SOTF characters. I'm pretty sure I've confirmed Holly Chapman and Anna Chase as these two. I just go "Hey, what would these people be like in the SOTFverse, and if their lives were really weird before, what would they be like if they lived an almost completely normal life before being abducted?". The answer: a seemingly meek perky goth and a spunky wannabe mechanic, apparently.

Oh, and I've also made two characters directly based off of real people as well; Kami Steele and Simon Leroy. To be fair, though, I can see parallels in people I've met, both online and off, in many of my characters. In fact, I can also see some self-insert-y elements to pretty much all of them, which gets worrying when it's people like Sidney Rice.

So yeah. That's me babbling about how I make people. Basically I get random inspiration out of nowhere, and go "HEY WOULDN'T THIS BE COOL? LET'S DO IT! : D"

I don't want to derail the "how do you create characters" thread, so I'll address that at the end of this post, but first I have a few observations.

For my birthday, I got a book called "How Not to Write a Novel". It's got a lot of astute observations in it, and it's an excellently snarky and useful resource. So I would like to adapt a few of the items from this book into "How Not to Write an SOTF Character".

The Chance Meeting - We all know the thread. The one where people wander into each other, maybe point their guns at each other, pontificate on the subject of whether they want to team up, bump into other people, ultimately decide one way or the other, and leave without anything having actually happened. This is the equivalent of your character having a nice, uneventful day in order to set up a plot. If your readers are anything like me, they're going to lose interest in your character before anything happens that's worth reading about. I would suggest getting your introductory post out of the way so that the characters are properly introduced, and then PMing the other person/people in the scene and proposing a thing to happen. Then, make it happen.

The Second Argument in the Forest Clearing - A problem I've seen with a lot of characters is that, with the uncertainty of not knowing when you'll be rolled, people write a certain amount of characterization out and then just kind of stop because they're afraid they won't get to the end of another arc. You don't have to make a major development happen with every thread, but you do want to avoid repeating scenes. Has your character already had an argument with their traveling partner (say, in a forest clearing) about whether or not it's right to hunt players? Don't have the next thread be the same argument all over again - make sure something else happens that drives the character forward.

The Child is Father to the Murder - This isn't a big problem here, but when it does happen, it's pretty noticeable. Yes, giving your character motivations for their behavior is a great thing to do. And giving characters history is not only another great idea, profiles require it. But don't have a particular childhood incident you threw into the profile be the excuse for pulling the trigger. To quote the book, "the relationship between [a character's] history and their behavior should be more complex than Pavlovian dog psychology."

There Is No Such Thing as a Perfect High School Student - Again, this isn't a huge problem, and in fact people often end up swinging the other way on this, but it's worth pointing out that perfect people are boring. Although the problem of characters with exaggerated dark pasts trying to rack up a dozen kills has been a problem, so is the character who would never dream of killing anybody and gets straight As and is a great role model for people to look up to. We've all had our off days, and SOTF is definitely among your character's offest.

Interests as Accessories - People will not like your character just because he likes your favorite bands, or because she's really athletic, or because he goes to all the cool parties, or because she's a tomboy who can still totally be a girly girl if and when she wants to, etc. Interests should impact the character, not just the character's profile.

Compassion Fatigue - Your high school student has some serious problems - namely, they're about to die in a horrifically gruesome way. But your character should not have all of the problems all of the time. If they tend to get beat up at school, have a scene or two where they have a good time hanging out or something. If they've had three encounters with death in a row lately, have them hook up with one of their few remaining friends and have a relatively happy scene.

I Am Expressing My Sexuality - Yes, we all have sexual thoughts from time to time, but unless you want everyone to think of your character as a total lech from the get go, do not have them ogle people until well after we already know the character. This is a counter-argument to the "if you really must make your character have sex, have them do it early on before fatigue and paranoia set in too much" argument I've heard several handlers make. If your first scene must include boning, be aware that they are going to be the Boning Character until they're proven otherwise. And that might not happen until day 8.

Inside the Mind of a Criminal - This is the entry that made me want to write this post. We've been over it a bunch, but here it is again: Don't write motivations for your killers that are unrelatable. Cartoon villains exhibit cartoon villainy so the kids can understand. Just because your player character is going to kill 5 people in the next 24 hours doesn't mean they're so evil that no sane human on the face of the earth can comprehend their motives. Consider the circumstances - there's a lot there that could explain someone's decision to play. And, as I think some people have said before, if we can understand why your character kills, we will be even more horrified than if you just have them suddenly decide they want to be eeeeeeeeeeeviiiiiiiiiiiilllllllllll.

Don't Mind Me, the Potential Target - If you have three people in a scene, and two of them are having an important discussion, it is the responsibility of the two most important characters to the scene not to forget about the third person, and it is the responsibility of the third person to support the scene in some way or leave.

Mind Reading - Addressed elsewhere, but it bears repeating: Just because your conversational partner thought it does not mean you get to respond to it. If the character in front of you looks suspicious because she thinks you might want to kill her, do not immediately try to reassure her (nervousness is perfectly acceptable given the circumstances), and for the love of God don't outright say you don't want to kill her.

Men of Inaction - If your character thinks it, make sure it's relevant. DO NOT have your character take stock of their life just because nobody's shooting anybody at the moment. To quote the book, "While an occasional reflection can be useful as a segue into a scene, or as a note within a scene, it should never itself be a scene." If there's one item on this list that I think hasn't been addressed much elsewhere and that I think needs to be addressed, it's this one.

Various Other Problems with Interior Monologue - There are a lot of these. They will be addressed in passing:
Don't have your character jump out of their skin at every single opportunity unless they're really really about to snap.
Don't have your cold, emotionless killer actually be devoid of emotion. Double for characters who are supposed to have emotions.
An island is a sensory buffet, but don't say your character smelled this or felt that at every opportunity.

The Problem With Song Posts - Song posts can be done well. The reason they're often not done well is because they place too much responsibility on the song itself. If your song lyrics expand or comment on the action/themes/whatever, then that's fine. However, if you're using the lyrics to state exactly what you're trying to get across because you think Radiohead or whoever said it so much better than you ever could, then you need to at least try to outdo Radiohead and say it yourself. And if you just like Radiohead, well, we have a music sharing thread for that.

...Whoa. That was a bunch of them. And to respond to how I make characters... well, you kinda already hit upon everything. Thread derailment yeah!

Hey, everyone. This is, uh, this is not my usual happy or mildly grumpy general discussion post. This is a discussion of a very serious issue I've noticed in V5 Pregame and that I think needs to be addressed openly and as soon as possible. Please trust that I mean no offense to any handlers in this post. That said, I have been in situations in real life where I've sat by quietly while feeling uncomfortable with how my friends are acting, and I'm not making that mistake again.

To be incredibly blunt, reading some of pregame has been skeeving me out lately because I've hit on an alarming and increasing number of posts with misogynistic vibes. Our community is, by and large, a great and welcoming place. I like to believe that all of our members are mature people who are not prejudiced. That is, in large part, why I feel comfortable addressing this in this fashion.

Quite frankly, there is a large difference between writing a misogynistic character and writing a misogynistic post, and I feel like that line is getting crossed. We've had plenty of highly objectionable characters in the past. Heck, V4 saw a fairly tastefully-handled extreme racist/quasi-neo-nazi. I'm not saying that characters need to be shining beacons of virtue. That'd be really boring.

What I am saying is that handlers must be aware of the connotations of their posts. They need to know how what they say may be perceived.

The issues I'm seeing are as follow:

Girls are often treated as sex objects. This one has already been covered at length, but it is once again rearing its ugly head. SOTF has a pretty high prevalence of promiscuous female characters. Hey, some real people are promiscuous too. The subject can be handled tastefully, without taking over a character or turning them into a caricature or applying judgemental double-standards. That said, it can also go wrong really quickly.

The going wrong comes largely in treating characters as nothing more than sex objects. This is actually really offensive. Remember that we strive for realism here at SOTF. Real people are never just sex objects. I've known folks of both genders who slept around a good deal. That was a tiny element of their personalities. It did not comprise the whole of their beings. Seeing characters reduced to one trait, or even focused strongly on one trait seemingly solely for the sake of titillation, is distressing to me. It speaks to judgement and stereotypes. It's like seeing a geek portrayed as a pocket-protector-wearing math-loving socially-inept freak. It's like seeing an anime fan portrayed as a maladjusted loser solely based on their hobby. It's got to stop.

Most of SOTF's handlers are Caucasian heterosexual males. I mean, we've got pretty awesome representation of genders and groups, but we are still largely comprised of straight guys. At the same time, close to half our characters are female. I have never seen a female handler handle only female characters, whereas it is fairly common among male handlers. There is nothing wrong with that. The problem is, most people do not have intrinsic understandings of gender differences. Sometimes this leads to characters who seem rather genderless, even oddly so. This can be a bit awkward, but it's not a huge deal. What is a huge deal is when it leads to cartoonishly exaggerated representations of female (or male, but that is way rarer on SOTF) characters and characteristics. We often see it with subjects such as pregnancy and menstruation. It can perpetuate really offensive or stupid stereotypes ("Girls just get crazy at that time of the month; don't take their complaints seriously 'cause it's just PMS").

A rule of thumb I've heard quoted a lot (and will not try to attribute, because I'll get it hilariously wrong) is that writers should write all their characters as members of their own gender, sexual orientation, and ethnicity. They should then arbitrarily change half the characters' characteristics, thus diversifying the cast. This tends to produce characters who are different from the writer and still act like human beings. This is, in fact, the story behind the protagonists of Night of the Living Dead (the first movie to feature an African-American man in a leading role that had nothing to do with race) and Alien (where the lead was initially considered for a male character). Now, obviously you can't write the whole story and then change a character up in SOTF, but the basic thought remains: don't stereotype characters. Don't base them on how TV shows treat the opposite gender. Sitcoms are all about exaggerations and stereotypes, and are not good examples when it comes to depth or realism.

Another thing: if you're unsure how something works, ask! SOTF has, as noted, lots of folks from different backgrounds and of different races, genders, and sexual orientations. If it's key that a gendered detail come out in a post or profile, check with someone in the group you are representing for help portraying things accurately and tastefully. Nobody I know would be offended by a polite request for help.

The girls-as-sex-objects thing has some other facets too. Often, posts come across as wish fulfillment. I see a lot of characters who feel more like sexual fantasies than they do real people. This is not a new issue (I see lots of it in every version, to be honest), but it is an issue I would love to put an end to once and for all.

The problem is that sometimes handlers seem to write female characters—and specifically (though not exclusively) promiscuous female characters—just so they can describe them in sexual ways or place them in sexual situations. This is really gross. SOTF is not a place to work out sexual fantasies. There are many places on the internet precisely designed for that purpose. In fact, the whole thing is very odd, given that SOTF almost guarantees a tragic and disturbing ending.

A simple way in which this manifests is descriptions in profiles. Female characters often have their breast sizes listed, specifically by cup size. I've been denying over this of late, actually, because more often than not it is less useful than a general physical description and it comes off as a touch creepy, especially if, say, a character doesn't have a listed eye color or height. Unless your appearance section is as detailed as this, there's no real justification for that information. As one staffer often jokes, we'd look really oddly at a profile that included penis length. Similarly, the use of tons of flowery language to describe a character's sexiness or beauty ends up sounding creepy. It's also not super realistic. Almost every promiscuous girl ever written on SOTF has been either a. stunningly attractive, maybe even a model or b. slightly chubby, but not fat per se, with a large bust. Again, that comes off looking more like someone's sex fantasy than a character. I mean, sure, some people are like that. It's just a huge recurring theme I've noticed.

Similarly, sex scenes often play out like fantasies. I won't dwell on that at length because I already did so in the ramble linked above and because V5 has actually been pretty good about that so far, but it does need a little mention. Suffice to say, most teenagers do not have perfect, wonderful sex. Most teenagers are not super sexually experienced (it's important to remember ages and demographics here. It's pretty darn unlikely any kid is gonna be able to pick up someone new every week. Also, remember that characters are almost never older than nineteen. That sort of puts a limit on the amount of time they can have been sexually active). More than that, portraying sex from a different gender's perspective is really tough. I've chatted about this with several girls, and have been informed that sex for girls is often not at all how it's portrayed in media (or written in posts). Things can be not very pleasant at all if a guy doesn't know what he's doing. Inexperienced high school guys very often have no idea what they're doing, or don't particularly care how things are for girls (or don't understand that things aren't good). None of this ever comes up in posts. Basically, glamorous sex comes off as weird and a little odd, especially since it usually serves no narrative purpose.

Another way in which very questionable attitudes towards women manifests itself is through the "othering" of girls. Trying to avoid getting into lit theory here, it's when girls are portrayed as intrinsically different from guys, especially when there are connotations that guys are "normal", making women "abnormal". This is really, really bad. People are people. We're all human. I think that should be at the forefront of everyone's minds when writing for SOTF. It even has applicability beyond gender issues; I've often mentioned that few things turn me off a character quicker than them feeling like a caricature of a stereotype. I've seen this exact same thing done to hipsters and goths. Heck, just a few posts ago, I was bemoaning my own error in that direction during V4 pregame. It's really, really important to remember that acting like human beings is a large part of realism.

Stepping away from the portrayal of female characters for a second, I'd like to note that poor attitudes towards gender issues manifest in other ways, too. There are often cases where male characters will act dismissively or derisively towards female characters and it will be treated as humorous or no big deal. There are situations where female characters will express their opinions and feelings and will be laughed off by default. A female character may get worked up and get dismissed out of hand as "bitchy" or "crazy".

All of these things can be in-character, but it is important to note that they are not default attitudes. Moreover, they are not sympathetic, heroic, or appropriate attitudes. They are attitudes that, as a society, we should have gotten over near the start of the last century. Characters can have them. Heck, sympathetic, heroic characters can have them. That does not make them acceptable. It makes the characters sympathetic, heroic, prejudiced characters with serious flaws. It makes them people I wouldn't want to spend much time at a table with. I think it is very important that handlers realize this. I lose sympathy for bigots pretty quickly. I also get annoyed when bigotry is used as a shorthand for evil because a handler couldn't be bothered to give their character actual motivations. This is something to take into account when writing.

As I mentioned before, we've had characters with despicable attitudes who were handled tastefully and who came out pretty well. V4 had a seriously racist guy who killed someone in large part over his racist beliefs. The key thing is, if you're writing a character who is a misogynist (or who is otherwise prejudiced), you must make sure that some things are clear. First off, it is not imperative that the character know that their actions are wrong. Most bigots don't. That said, it should really be clear that the handler knows where the issues lie. This doesn't have to be through direct notation or constant caveats. I find a big step in the right direction is just finding a way to express why a character feels as they do. Conveniently enough, this also does wonders for characterization. In one fell swoop, a character can be made more interesting and the site can be reassured that, yes, only the character is ignorant.

Long story short, it's pretty darn important to treat female characters like people when you're writing them, and to understand how your male characters are reacting to them and what that may reveal about them. If anyone ever wants an opinion, or advice, or help, I know that SOTF has a ton of people willing to lend a hand. I'm always willing to supply an unvarnished opinion. I just couldn't sit around quietly without speaking up, because, as a community, we're too good to have these issues coming up and lingering unaddressed.

Apologies for re-derailing. Dr. Roy, I quite liked your post, and I'll address it more cogently soon ('cause while I mostly agree I have a few points I don't feel the same on). This really needed immediate discussion, though.

Toben. <3

I agree with all of the above.

The main problem with sexualized female characters isn't that they're sexualized. It's that they have nothing much else to them. The best way to write them? Is to create a "normal" character beforehand and add the sexual/fanservice-y stuff later. Like for example, coming up with interests beyond "SHE FUCKS GUYS" or "SHE'S HOT". Personality traits? Weird quirks? Belief systems?

It's very possible to create a sexualized girl without making it her primary personality trait! Heck, I had a girl who spent most of TV dressed in a skimpy outfit and towards the end of her arc seduce a friend of hers. But her main personality trait was "troll", not "Playboy Bunny who seduces people". In fact, the Playboy Bunny thing was me trying to be funny rather than fanservice-y. Same goes with the seducing people thing, at least on my end. Again, I admit, I have a weird sense of humor. It gets even more humorous when you remember this character was originally an asthmatic nerd, but I digress. Anyways, point being? It's okay to write someone who's sexualized. It's when it becomes their main thing that it becomes problematic. Mind, Sidney's probably not the best example, seeing as she's mine and she probably wasn't perfect in that regard, but you know what I mean.

Newsflash: supermodels are in very low stock in American highschools. It's very unlikely you'll see a long legged, buxom, perfectly fit hottie walking around your halls. In fact, remember what highschool was like. Try to remember just how many of the girls were that level of stereotypical attractiveness. Only a handful even came close. Try looking at an actual highschool girl sometime, or heck, any woman for that matter. You'll find that real women, heck, real people have flaws. They don't look that pretty. Sure, plenty of teenage girls are attractive, but supermodel attractive? No. In fact, in reality supermodels are heavily made up, probably have some level of plastic surgery, put under unique lighting situations, and then photoshopped to bits before the picture is finally published. So, in actuality, flesh and blood supermodels don't look like supermodels. Very few women look that way naturally.

I already went on about the icky bisexual stereotype as well, but I have further thoughts on it. Here's the thing about portraying a bisexual character as overly sexually active; it's a stereotype in the real world, and a very unfortunate one. The stereotype goes that people who are bisexual will sleep with anything with no particular qualms and will never settle down with someone of one gender because they're too busy screwing everyone (click here for more info). This has impact on actual bisexual people, such as women being approached for sexual favors because as a bisexual they are supposed to be more loose, having people discredit their sexual orientation as an excuse to get laid, having dating partners believe they are going to stray by default, having them be seen as not "real" gay people, and other uncomfortable stuff. With this in mind, do you really want to write that promiscuous bi girl? To get an idea of how offensive this can get, consider this: we'd have problems with a campy gay guy who loves fashion and theater, a lesbian who is very masculine and loves football, or a transwoman who makes herself up in an oversexualized manner. So why is it that when it comes to the L, G, and T part of LGBT we'd be aghast at stereotyping, but when we see a B stereotype we just go "Well, bi people are like that"? It's just as awful. Actual bi people are not that different from monosexual people in terms of sexuality; we just are willing to go with either one. Both sexual feelings towards both genders are legit, bisexual people don't get in bed with anyone and everyone, and in fact many bi people are chaste, celibate, and/or monogamous.

It's okay to write a promiscuous bi person if you do end up writing one. However, please be aware it's an uncomfortable stereotype in the real world.

Same goes with lesbians. Yes, I know lesbians are hot. But they don't appreciate het guys ogling at them for their sexual preferences. Lesbians are not here for your entertainment. Yes, this is coming from the person who jokes about lesbian sex a lot in chat. Thing is, though, it comes off as very unsettling when a character's sexual preference is treated as a "fetish point" for reasons I hope I shouldn't have to explain.

And then there's the sexualized violence stuff. I don't really feel like talking about it too much, so here is my original thoughts on it, along with some other stuff relevant to the topic. Enjoy. Short version: portraying a rape or otherwise sexually violent scene against a woman is a very uncomfortable and often misogynous way of making your villain look awful, and should be handled with care.

And yeah. I noticed recently that a lot of male villains tend to have misogynous traits. In fact, I was actually going to post here pointing this out! Many male villains tend to have some degree of misogyny or another, which made me feel unclean when I noticed it. It's pretty much a villain cliche at this point: kill a bunch of people? THEN YOU MUST HATE WOMEN AND WILL MAKE IT KNOWN AT THIS POINT. NO EXCEPTIONS. Like the rape thing, it's a pretty stereotypical cliche when it comes to portraying horrible people. As I said originally; evil person does not equal rapist and/or misogynist. Evil people work in different ways, and just because someone's a cold-blooded murderer doesn't mean they'd rape. Similarly, an unbearable jerk isn't just going to go home and beat up his girlfriend for kicks or dismiss women's opinions. And to be brutally honest? A lot of misogyny directed at women by these characters often come off as another form of wish fulfillment, albeit in an even more disgusting form than it was already imagined. Like, you know, someone's girlfriend pissed them off or something and they're taking it out on some poor female character.

And as you said, it gets... uncomfortable when a character we're supposed to sympathize with shows rather... shall we say, outdated modes of thinking towards women. The thing is? When you're presenting a trait, you have to know what the character is thinking is dickish. A lot of my characters say, do, and think pretty awful things, obviously. Like, Simon, who thought a lot of ableist stuff and wanted to manipulate a girl because he thought she was autistic and thus easy to control. Or Miranda's hypocritical homophobia. Or... pretty much everything involving Sidney. It goes back to the jerk thing I mentioned earlier; if your character is acting like a dick, acknowledge it. Do not portray them as being in the right at this particular moment, because honestly? Yes, your character can be a dick without you realizing it. But think about it, and you could realize "Holy crap, this is awful". Many, many times have I seen a character we're supposed to like show misogynous modes of thinking, and it's treated as acceptable. It's okay to have someone with these traits, but to suddenly toss them out gets very disturbing, especially if it comes off that the handler agrees with the character.

Thing is, misogynists don't believe they're misogynists, and same goes with any other form of prejudice. Trust me, it's hard to tell people off when they're being sexist/homophobic/transphobic/ableist/racist/classist/whatever. They usually don't go "I HATE WOMEN. WOMEN SUCK". However, they're more likely to say "Wow. That woman's a skank. I shouldn't have to value her opinion". If you called them out on it, they'd go "NO I DON'T I LOVE WOMEN THEY'RE AMAZING AND I JUST DON'T LIKE THAT WHORE".

Oh, and I'll say it again. Underaged teenagers, guys. They're jailbait and it's kiddy porn if you show them in an explicit sex scene. If you still want to show them as hypersexualized and in explicit porn, well, hey, I have a fun song that suits you perfectly!

I think I'll cut that there for now. I might say more later. ^_^;

Regrets?

Hooo boy. Here goes.

V1:

Arturo Villamor was an entirely wasted character - he was based off of a real-life friend of mine who could have been a really interesting one, but unfortunately I gave him a really lame little personality quirk (his sociopathy). It didn't work and completely kneecapped me in terms of finding my voice with him. Eventually he just turned into fodder because I couldn't do much with him.

Cole Hudson getting killed early was unfortunate, but it was at that point choosing between going with him or swapping him with Adam Dodd, who'd been rolled. The fact that I'd just had him get stuck with a corkscrew made the choice easier, not to mention that I liked the group I had Adam traveling with. Hindsight says this was the right choice.

Eddie Serjeantson was a character that I thought had potential but I just sort of kept forgetting about him (and he got screwed over by a bit of other handler inactivity). I refined him though later on, modified my concept a little and he became Keith Jackson, who ended up being one of my better characters in the long run.

Adam Dodd. There are a few things that I did with him that looking back might have been a little too unrealistic/too much, but all in all I don't have any regrets. I really tortured the poor bastard as much as I could.

Biggest V1 Regret:

Amanda Jones. Here's a character that had a lot of potential, but unfortunately never really got off the ground - mainly because she was so intertwined with Adam's story - and he was so much more of an 'IN YOUR FACE' sort of character. To be honest it would almost have been better if she were with another group and hadn't met up with Adam. She served her purpose in the grand scheme of things but I'm a little disappointed that I couldn't make her a lot more three-dimensional. At one point, the original plan was for Adam to die saving her and then I would have developed her thusly, but that plan became too cliched, and what happened actually was a far better ending for her than I think I could have written at the time.

V2:

All of the BTS staff drama that went on. I regret all that nonsense - as justified as it was or wasn't, I wasn't exactly in a lovely headspace at the time and it resulted in my first leave of absence from this site. (First of many, unfortunately)

Hence, I wasted a lot of characters - some of whom I think had some real potential - others were, again, really just fodder and weren't going anywhere. Andrew P and Burton Harris were the two that I really wanted to RP with. Andrew's story really was fun for what it was - and he still has one of the more unique SOTF deaths.

V3:

Oh, V3. What do I regret about you?

Firstly - that I haven't finished a certain thing that I was supposed to do a million years ago. Erm. <_<

There were a few activity lulls on my part that I probably could have done a lot better of a job at controlling. I was back on staff at this point, and I regret letting through some characters, who were really just absolutely brutal.

I regret not trying to push the escape forward a bit faster - that plotline took a long time to come to fruition, and a lot of it was waiting around and whatnot. Could have been pushed through a lot faster, really.

Ken Lawson could have been done better. I thought up an absolutely ridiculous way to bring the character back, and the best I got from him was kind of a nifty death.

Ryan Atwell and Dean Portman should have been a bit more prominent during the game itself. Ryan really floated through until the last quarter of the game - I think if I'd actually had him going for a longer period of time he might have been a bit more popular than he was. Dean was just someone that I look at and go 'shit, I should have saved him for v4 or v5'.

Keith Jackson - I'm forever back and forth as to if I should have included him in the escape or not. Currently his story is unresolved, but all of his group perished around him, and I sometimes wonder, if Keith had been in the final 10 instead of Ryan, he might have been a fairly strong candidate to win the whole thing. Outside of Adam Dodd, he's probably my favourite character that I've written. I really need to give him a proper resolution, considering that all of his people - Kallie, Darnell, Guy - all perished and his own fate is still up in the damn air.

Wade Wilson: should have had him in more posts, if he were killing people or not, he was fun.

Adam Dodd - for the record I do not regret bringing him back at all.

V4:

Vanishing during v4 sort of gives me somewhat of an 'even-numbered SOTF curse'. My activity during the even SOTFs has really sucked. Wasn't too thrilled with my characters though, wrote the profiles so long before that I just forgot how to write them and slowly lost interest in them. I don't even remember who they were, outside of Jamie and Staffan. That's how little I sort of cared about them. Unfortunate. Oh well.

Uhhh. Yeah.

Also, on the subject of music posts - I've seen a couple done really well, and I've seen a lot done poorly. I think I do a decent job of them, so I'd say like...unless it really, really fits the scene - like both the SOUND of the song, and the lyrics of the song? Don't bother. I won't use something if it doesn't sound like if I were watching the scene as a movie, it wouldn't work laid underneath it.

I'm entirely not against song posts if they're done well. There have been times where it's become ridiculous, yes. There have also been times where it's done well.

The main issue I have with songposts is that... well, how do I explain? Okay, well, when a person hasn't heard the song or doesn't know which one it is, it gets confusing. Trust me, unless it's a REALLY well-known song, someone out there is going to go "What song is this?". So when the person hasn't heard the song before, it basically... well, it comes off as basically a line of words that they don't understand. They'll get confused, and they definitely won't be hearing it in their head. It'll just make them go "Huh?". It's happened to me a lot, seriously. Maybe it's because I need to listen to the same stuff as everyone else, but you know. But yeah, it kind of rushes into the assumption that we've heard the song before, and when we don't know what song it is, it gets awkwaaaaaaaaard. Even if you link to it in the post, it can still take someone out of a mood if they have to click something.

As I said, though! I'm not entirely against it! It just has its place, and if done incorrectly it can get pretty awkward. I personally don't do it too often; I only really songpost if a character happens to be listening to music at that particular time. In other words, diegetic music! However, I do toss song references in other ways, such as in thread titles.

I think the best way to do it is, like Dodd said, making sure it's thematically appropriate. It's usually not a good idea to play something like... um, this while a teenage girl is getting murdered with an ax, unless you're trying to be disturbingly funny on purpose. Even then, it works better with a visual medium. Choosing a song that works with the scene has a bigger impact, like choosing a song that fits a character's entire life/arc for their death scene or something like that. There have been times where I've cried over a death post with a song in it because it fits the character perfectly. No, seriously, cried. It can turn out really well, you just need to know what you've been doing. :3

I hate the divert from the topic of misogyny and such, but I kind of want to bring up a new discussion point that's been on my mind. Remember how I brought up jerks? Now I'm going the opposite direction and talking about nice people!

Nice people, like jerks, can actually be pretty fun to write. There have been some issues associated with them, though. I think the big one is, people try to set characters up as nice too much, and oftentimes it falls flat. In other words, they don't show them being nice, but rather tell. It gets rather aggravating when we see a character who is constantly propped up as the nicest person ever in each of their posts, even if there is evidence to the contrary. If your character's supposed to be really nice, let us know by showing them acting nice! Don't just go "They're nice! They donate to charity!". Actually show them doing something that's kind or friendly!

And as I noted earlier, it gets somewhat frustrating when we see a character who's supposed to be nice or at least decent do something kind of dickish. Like, making an inappropriate comment or doing something that is without a doubt kind of cruel on purpose. Sure, I get nice people act not-so-nice when they're frustrated or such, especially on the island, but if they're doing it without a good reason? Yeah, that's annoying.

Also, on that note, nice people can have moments of not being so nice either! Nice doesn't mean pushover, after all. Even the sweetest, most wonderful person can have bad days, especially if they've been through the horrors of the island. Heck, even just being around someone who irks them can turn them not-so-nice in a jiffy. Point being? Nice people don't always have to act nice, but they need a good reason to stop trying to be nice. Even if they are frustrated or such, however, nice people often try to plow through it unless they really are that frustrated.

In short? Nice people. Do you like reading or writing such characters? Any problems you've noticed in people who are supposed to be really nice? What about "heroes"? Any thoughts on those? Just talk about nice characters!

Wow, I meant to reply to this weeks ago.

Nice people can be really, really tough. While I agree entirely with Kami in many cases, to be honest, perfect angels bother me just as much as random sadists do. Often, I feel like there's a need to make "heroic" or "good" characters always make the best choices in a given situation. It's really rare that we see characters who are generally sympathetic acting like horrible jerks. It's rare we even see them snapping at people. I'm not quite sure why that is; perhaps people worry that it could come across as out of character or could make the reader loose sympathy for the character? Either way, I get bored/loose sympathy for characters who show no faults just as much as I do with those who are nice only in their profiles.

I think the key is to understand a character's psyche. A nice character will still have things that set them off, and what those things are will vary from character to character. It's key that we understand why a nice character is suddenly being not so nice.

I tend to like reading well-written nice people. I get super fed up with "nice" characters who display the flaws I mentioned, though.

On "heroes": I think one of the biggest changes in SOTF's culture has to do with them. Back in V1-2, it seemed like the heroes were all very action-focused characters. Quite often, a large part of their appeal came from the fact that they fought (and usually killed) villains. This was even true through a lot of V3. In V4, though, that style of hero fell by the wayside. I can't think of any character in V4 with over three kills I'd really refer to as anything close to a hero. In fact, there's less of a need for a character to have kills to be taken seriously (well, players unfortunately still seem to have a bit of equated quality and quantity, even though often their reception indicates that that may not be such a good barometer).

In fact... does anyone think V4 even had any heroes, or do you all agree with Ivan in Endgame, when he said, "There are no heroes on this island."? I definitely think there were fewer characters I'd qualify as truly heroic in V4. I'll need to think to see if I can come up with anyone who fits the role in a traditional way.

Regrets are cool. I'm a pretty big self-critic, so there's quite a lot of things I can look back on and chastise myself for, which I don't doubt I'll be doing in every single version as soon as I start looking back.


V3:

I've expressed before, but making Bobby (Jacks) a player was a snap decision, which, when looking at his profile, is a little bit astounding, since he has pre-made written all over him. It wasn't 100% conscious, but I was definitely angling towards trying to make him a 'badass' type, and really, he overall didn't really read as a high schooler. Perhaps a young adult in his early twenties, but he should never have been a high school senior, which meant I misstepped badly. Honestly what I regret is flipping the player switch so early and then moving towards remorse so late. I like what I did later on in the game, and I feel that my writing got substantially better as time wore on, but then you had the weird scenario of somebody who had been utterly merciless growing a conscience all of a sudden. Really, that's something that I should've been doing from the very beginning, but didn't.

Also, the bullet-proof vest thing. That was moronic, embarrassingly so.


Ric (Chee) was ridiculous, there's not really any other way to put it. The concept was stupid, the inter-relation with my other characters was stupid, and the overall execution was highly inconsistent. To be honest, he's a great example of how absurd things could get even as recently as V3. The only part of him that I DON'T regret writing is the fact he provided some (very) early momentum for SADD.


Tyson (Neills)... don't even get me started on him. For a start his background was monumentally stupid, for another thing he had way too much interplay with my other characters, and for a third I actively started disliking him so much I didn't even care by the time I got to the game. I don't regret killing him first post though. Sucker had it coming.


Keiji (Tanaka) had the potential for an interesting story arc with Lex Machina. His hyperactivity/stupidity was also kind've overdone. Yeah he was a dumbass, but nobody is THAT stupid, nor makes that many references. He was fun enough to play, I guess, but I do wish I hadn't swapped him out, because that could've been a good story.


Sean (O'Cann) would have been pretty great if V3 pregame is taken to not exist. He was dire in pregame apart from maybe one thread. I liked how his story ended, but it perhaps would've been better if he'd died sooner, perhaps from that persistent head injury (which was kind've funny to write). I did have a good time writing somebody who was just a sarcastic asshat to most everyone though.


I regret not getting further with Dacey, as it happens. The initial concept was odd and I didn't get it one hundred percent correct or realistic, but I was surprisingly happy with what I did with her. It just sucks a bit that I didn't have the chance to develop her further after Rick's death, since she died so soon afterwards. I think she would have made a compelling final 10 character, at the least.


I edited most of my regrets for Maxie. xD. I do wish I'd been able to have a few more threads earlier on with her though.


V4 maybe later, I think.

Well Toben, I wrote Ivan, so what do you think my thoughts are on the matter?

So we're talking about regrets, huh? I have a couple here and there, but most of them stem from lacking flexibility on changing plans that I had set up on the fly, so when circumstances didn't lay themselves down the exact way I had expected, the plan didn't quite work out the way I had planned. Also, there's tons of old shames in the earliest annals of my writing that I don't really like but... I feel we're all going to have that.

When it comes to nice guys and mean guys, I'm trying to separate the realms of 'nice versus mean' and 'good versus bad'. Just as it's possible to have an overall good person be a little gruff around the edges, it's just as possible to have a truly horrible person be sweet and sympathizing (though falsely in this case). I think that we could see more diversity in this scale, and not just visits to one extreme or the other. A good character is a complex creature whose attributes can't be plotted on a line. Some things are going to piss them off a little inordinately when compared to other triggers, and so on and so forth. Really, at this point I'm just rambling (what was I saying again?)!

With that, I think I'll just wrap this puppy up until the next time I decide to drop in.

In relation to the "nice / good" topic, something I've noticed sometimes in sotf and pregame, is that when characters are friends or at least acquainted or know each other, at least 85% of the time, the characters are sometimes too nice or polite to each other, I guess you could say. From my experiences with friends and acquaintances in real life, this isn't exactly the case. I don't know if it's true for anyone else, but with friends and even acquaintances, we tend to joke around at each other's expense or be sarcastic or dicks with each other a lot more. In the most loving way possible of course. It goes to show how close/comfortable people can be.

In the RP when non-strangers are being way too friendly or polite with each other, I just don't buy it, unless it's a part of their character's personality. It ties with the idea that Toben mentions about those "perfect angel" type of nice people. It just doesn't seem so realistic to me. Friendships like family, like individual characters aren't the most perfect storybook type of things. I like to see characters who are nice, but aren't nice all the time. Same with friendships. In fact that's why I enjoyed characters/friends like Paulo Abbate and Cooper Komorowski, because I find them much more realistic than the sort who are always so nice to each other.

It just confuses and annoys me sometimes, when a character is looked at or referred to as a jerk/A-hole by other characters for even making a few not so friendly comments or ideas. In fact it comes across to me as characters over-reacting or getting butt-hurt too easily instead. Not a bad thing, if that's the intention for the character's personality. In real life, most people are going to be showing moments like this, no matter how friendly they usually are. Just wanted to say.

So yeah, I like seeing nice characters have their moments of non-niceness. Even the nicest people I know do that. The same thing goes for less-kind people, showing moments of friendliness. I try to find a balance like this, every time I write as a character. I find it adds a lot more depth to a character, if done well.

[Grand Moff Hissa]

[+] The General SOTF Discussion Thread Part Eight

Okay. I'm lmao, reading the thread "This is war" featuring characters by Violent Medic and Diseased Bear. I'd detail further and link it, but I'm typing from my phone in bed right now. So a shout out will have to do at the moment. Good job guys.

I had to link this thanks to Keaka's (rather insightful) friendship discussion. It's just too perfect.

[+] Spoiler

I'm going to reach back a bit and put down my two cents on Toben's question on heroism, because I think it deserves more discussion than it's generated so far.

The bare question, "were there heroes in v4?" is hard to answer directly. My knee-jerk reaction is to say that of course there were some heroes somewhere in a roster of 276, but there are extremely few notably heroic characters (Ethan is the only name that springs immediately to mind), and none of the classical Captain Heropants variety. In fact, one of v4's defining traits in my eyes is pervasive moral grayness. I think it's very telling that a good part of the groundwork for the eventual escape was laid by someone (Liz) who I'd consider to be on the villainous side of the equation. Not a classical villain, of course (though closer than most) - whether the product, the reason, or simply an independent phenomenon of the lack of true heroism on the island, v4 also featured a notable dearth of truly villainous characters, which I think is worthy of some exploration. Have a look at the 10 most prolific killers of v4, and see how well they all serve as a foil for Captain Heropants:

- Maxwell was definitely a classic villain. Evil for evil's sake and whatnot.

- Reiko broke off her killing spree fairly early, and was involved in pushing others to escape.

- Raidon was all over the place morally, and basically the furthest from an unthinking villain you could ask for.

- Brook's mental state put him beyond conventional morality, somewhat akin to Wade Wilson in v3.

- Ema spent the vast majority of the game in the shadows, and enjoyed only fairly brief killing spree before her death.

- Kris is the literal definition of chaotic neutral as voted by the site.

- Hayley was generally a very bad person, and would be one potential target for the "action hero" type.

- Ilario tended more towards lost than truly villainous, and proved himself at least a halfway decent individual at the last.

- Clio was very much the classic villain, and her death in v3 likely would have been spun into heroism rather than tragedy.

- Nick was driven more by impulse than aggression, and risked (and lost) everything in a highly risky escape plot.

- Ericka was generally pragmatic, kept a fairly low killcount through most of the game, and was overall not an especially bright dot on Captain Heropants' radar.

I've not fully read each of the characters on the list, and I've probably forgotten the finer nuances of those that I have, but the overall pattern is still pretty clear. Strictly in-universe, all of them would make a decent prize for the aspiring player killer by killcount alone, but even a simple summary of actions without the emotional involvement of viewpoint writing would turn probably half into somewhat shaky entries on a heroic resume. Reading the characters themselves narrows it down further, as the majority are presented in a sympathetic light despite actions that may or may not be especially agreeable on the surface. This isn't a broad-spectrum analysis, of course, and there were characters more villainous with fewer kills, but the fact that there are only a very small handful of truly reprehensible characters in a group that killed off nearly a third of the island between them is certainly notable.

So, overall, I think Ivan captured the spirit, if not quite the letter, of v4's alignment. There were heroic characters, but most were only a slightly lighter shade of gray, and the villains only slightly darker.

To add to Rattle's statement, I want to note that Ethan actually had very little in the way of heroic intentions. He came off as a hero because of what he ended up doing, yes, but was actually quite far from thinking in a heroic fashion. He didn't consider himself one, at least.

So, a thing I've maybe discussed before but need to talk about again: formal speech.

Quite simply, most of the time I see it done, the handlers involved are doing it entirely incorrectly. By utilizing solely the maximally baroque modes of elocution, handlers are generating the inescapable and irrefutable impression that their thesauruses have become violently ill upon their posts.

In other words, every time I see a character talk like they come from a Dickens novel, it jerks me straight out of the story, and it's going on a lot in V5. A really great exercise recommended by one of my creative writing professors is to carry a notebook around and write down some stuff that people actually say. Basically, try listening actively so as to get a handle on dialogue Say all your dialogue out loud to be sure it is realistic and flows well.

In general, using super large words does not make a character look intelligent, especially if their handler does not actually know what the words mean. I see this a lot. Intelligent people with big vocabularies tend to learn pretty quickly how to communicate effectively, which sometimes means dumbing down speech so as to avoid having to put the whole conversation on hold for ten minutes to define everything. Dropping big words that you know other people won't know doesn't make you look smart. It makes you look like a stuck-up jerk.

Similarly, contractions (I am = I'm, you are = you're, it is = it's, etc.): use them. Love them. Real people do not talk without contractions. Avoiding contractions makes your characters sound like bad robots from 1950s b-movies, or like clanners if anyone is into Battletech. These are not really the associations you want. They make characters really hard to empathize with or take seriously in any way.

So, yeah. Basically just a little grumble about dialogue. Anyone else as sick of faux-Shakespearean as I am?

This is pretty hilarious, because I've noticed that too.

Many, and I mean many of the students have been talking in this sort of way, which doesn't come across as real like dialogue to me. I know Aurora can't be filled with these pseudo-intellectual types. What I think is, unless your character is a bit of a stuck up jerk then don't make them speak completely properly or use big words like that in regular conversation most of the time. I'm actually writing one of these stuck up jerk types, who as part of his character will talk like this sometimes (being a key word here - like when being a bit stuck up or talking with someone of equal vocabulary), but even then knows how to speak normally/adjust like everyone else, depending on the people he's speaking with. Just like Toben said above ^^^ people with big vocabularies learn how to adjust to speaking and communicating effectively.

So yeah, just my quick thoughts on that, (Cause now I gotta run for work!)

I will admit that I'm horrendously guilty of the formal speech thing when writing Naomi, though to what degree varies depending on the thread. Finding that balance between intelligent-sounding and wanky-sounding is tricky (and in the case of this character, I was trying to occasionally sort of tread into wanky territory because she sounds formal precisely because she's trying to sound more intelligent.) So yeah, a bit weary of the faux-Shakespearian thing, but also feeling extremely hypocritical about it. xD

Also, a bit further back with heroic characters... there were certainly a lot of characters with heroic personalities and intentions... you know, power of friendship and escape and all that... but the thing is that they never really ended up making a difference and often died out really fast. Which, admittedly, is what would probably happen in a SotF-like situation. Like, for every David that heroically stands up to the Goliath and wins, there's at least a dozen who get crushed.

I had a thought earlier, thinking about realism for V5. Well, I was thinking, pregame also goes for the same standards, except with out the killing parts.

Well, being that pregame is the 'A day in the life of an ordinary high school teenager' ---- I was wondering, if any of the things that you've read from others or written yourself, were stuff you have experienced or if anyone you know have experienced, either as a student/teen yourself at the time, or later in life even (like college, or if you're a teacher or parent or something).

For me, aside from some personality experiences that I put into my own characters, through myself and friends, an event that actually happened to me, was being in the cafeteria during a food fight (and hearing about others while studying in class or something), through my school life, so I'm not just making it up. No one actually says the "food fight!" bit, but when food starts flying, you'll be amazed to see how quickly these things happen. I dunno, maybe kids are rowdier here or something.

Another, was that alot of the *cliques* in school tend to have some "reserved hang out spots" in the school, during non-class hours, that are usually avoided by other students, unless they're new or something, like freshman or recently moved students. I like that it's been shown pretty well in pregame, in many different accounts.

On the other end, I read some stuff that I don't really see happening, in average life as much. A number one thing I've noticed and read many times in the current pregame, that I just didn't see in high school, is when a person randomly steps up to rant/throw a bitch fit, to someone minding their own business or who they're not directly involved with, out of nowhere. In real life it just seems that most people like to mind their own business and stay out of the way from problems that are not theirs, thus don't get involved. Though, at the same time, I understand that sometimes we do this in our writing to throw a little spice into pregame, so I'm not complaining. I guess it's more with the approach on how it's done, as sometimes it feels like some characters are constantly angry and looking for reasons to rant and scream.

I'm just curious to see how accurate to real highschool/teenage life we're doing in pregame, as unlike the island, we can actually measure up these things to our own life experiences.

Ooh, that's a really good point.

I have actually seen random freakouts and meltdowns. Usually it's because somebody manages to agitate someone else accidentally, and everyone's really surprised. Also, usually it does not take the form of screaming. I've got one friend who has a habit of telling people point-blank if he thinks they're lying to him, gets super passive-aggressive if he senses any aggression (real or not), and just generally can be really tough to deal with if you don't know him well. If you understand what's going on, though, he's an awesome and fun guy. But, yeah, he got tossed out of class in middle school for going on an epic, insulting rant to a math teacher who accidentally set him off. Basically, it's important to keep in mind consequences and degree of anger, and what anger means for your character (and how they've made it through life with those issues).

As to things I did not see in real life? Well, the bit where one kid is somewhere minding their own business and then like five more pile in with no pre-planning and then they all hang out. Like, far more common is when two individual people collide, or two groups, or one group and one person. Also, the hanging out can occur, but it's also pretty common for people to just smile and nod and move on.

Pregame has seen surprisingly few actual, planned meetups among friends, too. It'd be cool to see more of that.

Okay, I will admit to having a little bit of trouble with realism in pregame, partially due to never actually going to high school (I was homeschooled from the fourth grade up). As a result, I'm not really sure how high school kids interact with one another due to a lack of personal experience. I am aware that a couple of my characters can be pretty outrageous at times (*coughAdoniscoughStaceycough*), but I'm honestly trying my hardest, and I think I'm getting better at it.

Other than my own screw-ups, I haven't really noticed anything in pregame that seems too out of the ordinary. At the very least, there's nothing like the various shenanigans that took place during v3 pregame.

First, I do know some really aggressive people in RL and I am more than familiar with these people. So I can understand it completely if someone is starting a rant in Pre Game. Additionally, there are teenagers. There are bound to be people not able to handle their emotions yet

Secondly, I am more surprised with this:

As to things I did not see in real life? Well, the bit where one kid is somewhere minding their own business and then like five more pile in with no pre-planning and then they all hang out. Like, far more common is when two individual people collide, or two groups, or one group and one person. Also, the hanging out can occur, but it's also pretty common for people to just smile and nod and move on.

I don't know if my school was the normal or the special case, but this is how people interacted at my school. You could walk up to some people you (barely/don't) know and then you could just hang around with them.

Or it just could be the handlers being spontanious and willing to write with other people they might not have experience with, and I think we can agree that this is a good thing, or?

I've met people who come in a pretty wide range of aggressions. Granted, a vast majority of people are not super-easy to set off, but you get those few. That said, I will admit that the whole situation I put Cassandra in right now is a little bit off, but more because Cassandra probably just didn't have any business being in that location at that time than acting internally inconsistent (I just wanted to get her into some action, and I realized after creating her that I had created a character that was going to be difficult to put into situations where she could RP).

I try to avoid putting my high school experiences into my characters too directly just because I went to a very different high school than Aurora. That said, the whole "places where groups hang out" thing was 100% true at my school. There were a few areas of campus that my group of friends basically had to ourselves after school to play video games on the projectors, and nobody from outside our group of friends would go there.

I think one big issue (and one that I was actually discussing with another handler recently) is that people seem to sometimes know each other a bit too well.

I'll provide an example, using my own girl Miranda Millers. Now, Miranda's whole schtick is that she holds up a public facade. While she acts all bitchy in public, in private she's actually pretty subdued and nervous. Okay.

Now, let's consider the details about Miranda which are not common knowledge in-universe:

- Her love of anime and video games
- Her sleeping with and having a(n unrequited) crush on Dolores
- Her lesbianism, period
- Her implied daddy issues
- Her general insecurity/anxiety problems


Now, let's pretend that I make a thread with Miranda in it. She's just minding her own business, and then she runs into someone to be a bitch to. Okay. So far so good. The conversation goes on, and *somehow* that someone knows about one of the above. Which is problematic for two reasons:

1. Personal issues aren't usually tossed about publicly. If it's someone who's a close friend of Miranda, okay, they can figure out that she's kinda insecure! Heck, they could probably put two and two together and figure out she kind of likes Dolores and is embarrassed about that if they know her REALLY well (and it was discussed between the two of us). But if someone who only knows her on a passing basis goes "Miranda, that bitch. I bet she secretly likes girls and anime", it kind of goes "wha?". Because they don't know her that well. Heck, even the insecurity can be something for people to not figure out initially in some cases: I believe an initial reaction would be "What a bitch!". Mind, it could be inferred based off her behavior, but it may take a while (and someone observant) to come to that conclusion right away. So, generally, it comes off as "Where did you get that info?"

2. It's a form of godmodding. Miranda isn't willingly tossing that info out, and most likely, the handler didn't discuss it with me that they know for some reason or another (for example, finding a profile on an anime site with a username they know to be hers). It just comes off as the author using OOC knowledge to do something IC.

Yes, there have been a few times where this has happened, not just in v5, but elsewhere as well. Generally, if someone has a personal issue/backstory detail/something otherwise not commonly known and your character doesn't know them very well, don't bring it up in your posts, either in dialogue or thought. If someone has been, say, going to therapy sessions, then guess what? Classmate #102195 isn't going to know that. They're not going to sit down with that person at lunch, and go "That's my classmate! He's been going to therapy for depression!". They're more likely to go "Oh hey, there's that guy on the baseball team. He's a pretty nice guy, perhaps he would allow me to sit here? Wonderful! He's such a nice person~".

Mind, it's *usually* nothing as extreme as any of the Miranda examples, but that's the only example I could give as a hypothetical.

As I said, it makes sense if they are buddy-bud, or at least know each other well enough. If it's someone they've barely talked to, though... yeah.

Again, I know it comes off as something that doesn't need to be said, but trust me, sometimes this does happen and people do know these sort of things about a character right off the bat when they logically shouldn't. I'm guessing this is an attempt to avert the whole "Hey! Who are you peepz? Oh, nice to meet you!" thing that people hate, except it goes in the other direction to the point where it comes off as GMing and kind of takes people for a loop.

So yeah! Guys, please do realize that certain details wouldn't be common knowledge for the common person. :3

I don't know if my school was the normal or the special case, but this is how people interacted at my school. You could walk up to some people you (barely/don't) know and then you could just hang around with them.

Ah, sorry, I was unclear. I don't mean at school. At school that happens all the time.

I mean, a character is eating at McDonalds and then, by complete chance, five other characters independently pile into the same booth. That's what's silly.

I'm actually going to offer a flipside to what Kami said and laugh about how there's a tendency to look at things from one point of view, one that is often shared by... well, the students more like us (so the geekier ones).

The example I use here is, of course, Cody Patton. There's been emphasis on the fact that he's a prick to geeks, yeah, but only to them and other members of the 'uncool' crowd. Basically your quintessential asshole on the football team that we've all had to put up with from time to time... or, if you were a jock (in high school, I most certainly was not), you didn't have to put up with them at all. They were actually a nice lot.

I point this out because relating to how many people think Miranda is nicer than they actually should think thanks to her facade, people who should easily see past Cody's actually can't (he's a bully to some so he must be a prick to all, right?). So I don't want to go quite so far as to say that everybody knows everybody too well, but it's more like we're not considering the viewpoints from which our characters should view each other.

I'm going to concur with observations made by Hit Girl and Ricky.

I've experienced/read both; characters knowing too much about a character that they shouldn't, like the Miranda example and moments where characters see other characters from one point of view, much like the Cody example. So in ways, both of these things happen at times. So yeah, I back the idea that people should consider what view-point our characters should view each other and also consider what would be common knowledge in-universe. Both great points, guys.

Out of curiosity - How much time (like how much time spent on reading, or do you mostly skim, etc) and how much of it do you read of a.) Main island game b.) Pregame? Do you go back and read some things about a character later, once they join in a thread with you, if you haven't already? How much?

I agree on the perception things. Really nothing to add.

On reading: I read everything. Specifically, I've read all of V4 pregame, all of V4, all of V5 pregame so far (except the stuff since I went to bed), and all of Mini. I do not read all profiles. Profiles blur together for me really quickly, and I have a tendency to backseat-mod when I catch stuff I would have never approved, so it's better all around if I leave those alone. I do check 'em out if I end up in a thread with a character, though.

How much time does it take? No clue. A good while, but nothing undoable. I'm also a pretty slow reader online. The computer screen is tougher for me to focus on, and I try to read everything very thoroughly so as to catch nuance and remember detail.

Another question I was curious of, due to the whole prom event in pregame:

If you went to your high school prom, what did you do for/at your prom after party or hang out? What are your personal experiences? Or what have you heard happened, from friends/classmates/etc. If you didn't have one, what do you think happens during these, where do they happen, etc?

My school had an AfterProm event. It was five dollars admission and that bought you all the food you could eat. We went there every year and invariably ate a boatload of pizza, chatted with friends, and then fell asleep in a corner around 5 AM. It was tons of fun and nothing objectionable ever occurred.

I didn't go to my prom, but I was the driver for several siblings and family members. Their after-proms all varied. Several cousins went to school-sponsored events like MurderWeasel described. My brother and his date and the group they went to prom with all went back to my brother's date's house and watched horror movies until 5 am. One of my sisters went to an after-party at a hotel room with her friends and their dates since someone's date was old enough to rent a room. A couple of cousins went bowling until 4 am since the local bowling alley ran an after-prom special.

My sister who went to the hotel party was disappointed with the party. She was expecting something more like they show on tv and in movies, and it was basically a bunch of underage drinkers who got wasted, cried, and then threw up. She called me at about 3 am to pick her and her friend up.

I only went to my senior prom. Stayed for 1/2 before my group ended up leaving and heading to my place for after-party. We grabbed a late dinner and ended up watching Mean Girls and Harry Potter Musical. No alcohol was involved (only one of my high school friends drank while he was in high school, and he didn't even drink that much).

Knowing my school, though, some of the other parties may have been a bit more wild.

My prom had no after-event. I stayed the night with a couple of my friends. However, I live in New Hampshire, which is known for sucking on occasion.

I kid. I love my home state to death, but we can tend to be a little different from the rest of the nation. When I went to one of my ex's proms (obviously we weren't exes at the time), there was something of an after party with inflatables and shit (mechanical bull, jousting, obstacle course) and concessions.

"obviously we weren't exes at the time"

Even that varies; you'd think it would be obvious that you don't dump someone you've been seriously dating and then ask them to prom the next week. My high school boyfriend missed that boat by a mile. Dumped me one week, asked me to prom the next, all the while assuring me he'd already asked one of our mutual friends as a back-up date. It was kind of entertaining to turn him down though after setting the mutual friend up with the guy she really liked. Not my classiest moment, but definitely satisfying.

I didn't go to my senior prom (only seniors could go at my school, although they could bring non-senior dates) but it was apparently a pretty nice shindig. I think some people went to gatherings afterwards, but there was an official after-party on a cruise ship on the lake (we were near one of the Great Lakes in the US) and I think it was reasonbly well-behaved and well-attended.

... Woah. That... that sounds rough, Pengy. Here I thought that was going to be a clear-cut deal, yeah? Heh... ehehe. Awkward!

So, yeah, proms definitely vary in whether or not there's going to be any sort of event afterward. I think in most cases, it's in good form to hold an event afterwards that keeps the kids there and not drinking or having sex (this is from a scholastic point of view, I have nothing against drinking or having sex in particular). To bring it to a personal level, at college, we got so much funding from the Student Activity Board ('we' being the Gaming Guild) because we were really good at keeping people in the school buildings on Saturday night. To a school district, kids being in school means 'not getting in trouble', which is why many schools do after-prom events in the first place.

So, y'know, I think there's that spin on it as for why it's a good thing (I think that's the topic?), but it's not the end of the world if there isn't one.

Nope. Didn't have an after prom thing. I just left, went home, took off my dress and went into my jammies, maybe said something about it online, and went to bed. : D

I was just thinking. In this thread, we tend to complain about things we dislike. How about we talk about things we like seeing? Like, surely there are some things we like seeing in scenes, rather than dislike? So you? What details, traits, or moments make you smile whenever you see it on SOTF?

I'll just leave that here for now. My brain's kinda fuzzy right now, and I'll let you guys answer first, since it's interesting to see what folks have to say before I say it. :3

I like when characters care about their friends and classmates. I like when they mourn their deaths and are actually affected by losing friends and acquaintances. It doesn't happen nearly enough, and it certainly makes a huge impression and makes characters a lot more sympathetic.

I like subtlety. I like when not everything is spelled out, and especially when it builds up over time. Foreshadowing is really tough in SOTF, I know, but when it works it pays off in a serious way.

I like when characters have real flaws, ones that are believable and show that they have issues and are human, but don't totally tank my sympathy for them.

I like villains who make sense and are actually menacing, who I can believe in and take seriously.

I like characters who are really rounded, who keep me guessing due to depth rather than inconsistency. I like when handlers clearly have a really good grasp of their characters as people and stick to that even when it's tough or involves consequences.

I'm sure I'll think of more stuff later.

Along with what Toben said, I really like characters that are heavier on introspection. A character is a lot more relatable for me when I can understand what is going on in their head. Usually what is more interesting is not the "what" of what a character does, but the "why."

Along with what Toben said, I really like characters that are heavier on introspection. A character is a lot more relatable for me when I can understand what is going on in their head. Usually what is more interesting is not the "what" of what a character does, but the "why."

Personally, I'm different in that regard. Yes, introspection is important for a character, but too much of it and I simply lose interest. I get a better grasp on how characters tick through their dialogue and actions, not how they think and what what they think means and why it's important and whatnot. I know thoughts and stuff are needed, but if a character is all thought no talk/action, I probably won't continue reading.

I wanna avoid a cheap 'uh, yeah, what Toben said', so I'll try and have something to add.

If there's something I like in particular, it's a general lack of conviction. These are high school students, not military-trained super soldiers. Whether those first few kills are sloppy as fuck and filled with hesitance, or they can't kill at all, or... god, just anything that lets me be reminded that these are kids forced into a situation full of death and killing. Yeah, that just about sums it up.

Along with what Toben said, I really like characters that are heavier on introspection. A character is a lot more relatable for me when I can understand what is going on in their head. Usually what is more interesting is not the "what" of what a character does, but the "why."

Personally, I'm different in that regard. Yes, introspection is important for a character, but too much of it and I simply lose interest. I get a better grasp on how characters tick through their dialogue and actions, not how they think and what what they think means and why it's important and whatnot. I know thoughts and stuff are needed, but if a character is all thought no talk/action, I probably won't continue reading.

I think the key is balance. To be honest, a lot of the time I have no idea why characters act as they do. Stuff like betraying friends, or starting to kill, or anything of the sort, basically loses all drama if it's not believable, and I don't feel like it can be believable unless at least the handler knows why their character is acting how they are. We see so many characters who are inconsistent or random that knowing there is some motivation behind their actions is quite the blast of fresh air. For me, SOTF isn't about the action, because it will never beat all the other things that are expressly about action. I mean, we wouldn't wanna see this in SOTF, because it's all wrong for the story, feel, and themes (not saying I don't adore Versus; I do!).

Basically, anything can go too far. I have read characters whose thought processes put me to sleep. I think the thing to remember is that we probably don't ever need to hear the same thought more than once a thread, let alone more than once a post. That said, if I've gotta read five thousand words of one thing, I'll take musings over action any day, 'cause musings have the potential for insight whereas the action well runs pretty dry without tapping the unrealism reserves in a hurry.

All of this brings me to another thing I love:

I love when I know why players want to survive. This is far and away the biggest thing that will endear a villain to me. If I don't know why they're willing to commit atrocities, or if their reason isn't good, I just won't care. On the other hand, if there's something there, something human and maybe even relatable, it just works so well for me. I think this is one of the big things that makes Lenny one of my all-time favorites, actually.

[Grand Moff Hissa]

[+] The General SOTF Discussion Thread Part Nine

Alright, might as well share things I like seeing.

Handlers taking risks with concepts- Now I'm going to say something that may or may not be controversial; I would much rather see a well-thought out concept that was pretty ground-breaking but wasn't perfect, rather than a perfectly written character whose handler took no risks with what they were writing and kept in the "safe zone", such as writing a generic player or likewise.

I love it when I see handlers take risks with their characters. What do I mean by "take risks"? Well, it can mean "originality", but it's more of an extensive concept than that. What I'm saying is, they have their character do something that could easily not go over well, but they go ahead and do it anyway. I love it when handlers step out of the "safe zone" and do something that is completely unexpected, something that makes us go "wow". I guess what I'm saying is, these are characters who break the mold of what we expect from SOTF, such as "hero" or "villain", and play around with a concept. I love it when I see someone develop a different take on the SOTF story, rather than go with what's established to "work" already (for example, that romance arc I complained about earlier). I love it when I see people do something out there, and for bonus points? They make it WORK. This is the reason why Hoogz and Liz are two of my favorite characters from v4; they were pretty ground-breaking and, in my view, set a standard!

It's kind of hard to explain, but I guess what I'm saying is, while realism is good and all, I love it when someone develops a concept that is definitely mold-breaking, breaks the status quo of "hero vs villain" character arcs, and do something out there that even if it doesn't go over well, you can't help but admire them for going out and doing that. Bonus points if they succeed at making the character great. After all, many great characters are ones that took risks and then had those risk-taking moments work out in their favor, rather than going with what people expect or what has already been proven to work.

In short? Do not go with what peepz expect or what has been done a bazillion times, or if you must, put a twist on it. I love seeing new ways to tell the SOTF story, and I love new takes on it, and I'm sure others like it too. I love seeing people take those risks to tell the story differently.

Characters being fucked up- I've alluded to this before in the thread, but I love seeing people who are seriously fucked up from what they've been through.

Maybe it's because I kind of like psychological themes in my stories (which sometimes pops up in my kids), but I love it when a character either has some kind of psychological issue develop as a result of the island or intensified because of it. I personally love seeing the psychological side of SOTF, and seeing how that changes people. I love seeing characters who clearly are messed up after watching a bunch of people die and perhaps killing a few themselves. I love seeing psychological themes, as I said, and I like seeing people who are... well, not well, especially after the events.

I like seeing villains who are clearly fucked up in the head, but you can still tell that if things had gone differently, they could have been normal, perhaps even a great person to be around. Like, if things had gone differently, they could have been someone who was really nice, or someone who could easily be your friend. But because of what the island did to them, they get... well, they get twisted into what they once were, and as a result they are now villains. I love seeing villains who just have problems, but you can still see a scared teenager in there somewhere.

And same applies to non-villains, believe it or not! Non-villains can be plenty fucked-up too. It's a lot more interesting to me to see someone who is clearly scarred for life by what they've been through, rather than see someone who isn't. I love seeing characters go through psychological issues, have complex internal conflicts, go through moments that show just how fucked up they've become after what they've dealt with, and just... show the psychological side of SOTF.

And as I said. If you show gore, there's just gore. But once there is a clear reason for it, and it makes sense, then it becomes much more disturbing. Because we know why, and oftentimes, the "why" is more disturbing than the "what". Thing is about gore, it loses its impact after a while. It's shocking the first time, but once we get used to it it loses the touch. Heck, it may not even work the first time, since we live in a society where violent programming is the norm (SOTF the site is itself an example!). However, once we get a peek inside the character's head while they are torturing someone and justifying it to themselves, and everything makes sense and is consistent, then you are close to guaranteed to have your readers lose sleep that evening.

Heck, character dynamics can be pretty dysfunctional too. Which is kind of sad, since we don't see too many fucked-up relationships between characters too often. I love seeing characters that, looking at it objectively, there's a clear dysfunction to how they act around each other, even if they like each other and want each other to live, and they were the bestest friends before the island. Like, one person becomes overprotective of another to the point of obsession, or perhaps they start to dislike each other after what's been happening but stick around anyways. I also kind of wish more people wrote romance arcs where there's actually relationship problems based on the environment, as I said.

So yeah. I love seeing characters with psychological themes and/or clear fucked up-ness going on, especially if it's subtle. I just love seeing some psychologically horrifying stuff, and I feel in some spots SOTF needs more of that. Maybe that's just my personal tastes, but you know.

Calm, relaxing scenes- Believe it or not, I actually like threads that aren't drama filled from time to time. Yes, you read correctly.

A lot of handlers forget that threads don't need to be drama-a-minute. Sure, there's the whole "classmates killing each other" thing, but sometimes, you, your character, and your reader needs a breather. So why not create a thread that isn't particularly drama-filled? That's right, DON'T create a drama-filled thread.

I love drama as much as the next person, but I love seeing the occasional subdued thread. A thread can be great without a fight scene, someone getting murdered, a revelation about who kicked who's puppy, and so on. Sometimes, what you need is actually something pretty calm, such as two friends talking to each other, no one is freaking out, and it may even be about something trivial.

After all, too much drama can wear thin on a reader, so this gives both the character and reader a chance to relax a bit. These are also great for establishing characterizations and such. Like, maybe they could talk about something they liked from before, or tell a funny story about something that happened before they were abducted. This gives a bit more depth to your kid, especially if they mention they wanted to, say, eat a grilled cheese sandwich, and if they ever made it home the first thing they'd do is eat a grilled cheese sandwich, since they miss them so much. There is so much potential for having a pretty calm moment in a thread, rather than "FIGHT SCENE FIGHT SCENE DRAMA OVERLOAD OH GOD I'M BLEEDING" every single thread.

I actually remember reading an RPing guide a long time ago (don't have a link, since it's so long ago. Sorry!), that referred to starting drama every which way as "firestarting", and it was something to be avoided, pointing out that sometimes, people just want to read a thread/scene where nothing particularly dramatic happens. So yeah! Calm moments are actually pretty awesome when done well.

Flaws are actually pointed out!- I love seeing characters bitched out!

No seriously, I do. I love seeing characters point out other things about characters that aren't necessarily... well, they're definitely not virtues. And the thing is? They're right! No seriously, I love it when I see characters bitch to people about things that are true. Which are easy enough for villains, but I don't think heroes and at least lighter shades of gray characters get this too often. We hardly see heroic characters have their flaws pointed out to them by other characters, and it would actually be interesting to see anyone get bitched out for something that is correct. For example: a player hunter being told that "killing people the way you are, what makes you any better than the people you're going after?". Or someone who has been diligently been protecting his girlfriend being told- by her, no less!- that he has only been protecting her so much because he thinks she is weak, and thus might have a low opinion of her, in addition to completely ignoring the well-being of other people for her sake.

I love seeing handlers put their characters in scenarios where they might get bitched out, even if they're supposed to be pretty good by SOTF-standards. Sure, there have been times where it hasn't been done well. But when it's done by someone who'd the bitched-out person would listen to, it's completely true, and it makes sense in context, I love seeing it. It shows that the handler is willing to admit the character isn't a perfect person if it was planned between the handlers, and it shows that people both in and out of universe are willing to admit that the character isn't who they are cracked up to be. Plus, oftentimes the reader is thinking the same thing, and it can be very cathartic to read a scene where a character vocalizes what they've been thinking all along. I can think of so many characters that I felt like someone needed them to bitch them out, but no one ever did.

So yeah! I love seeing personality flaws being pointed out by other characters, even if it's just an armor piercing statement sort of pointing out. Especially if it was planned from the beginning, and it's completely true and makes sense within the context of the thread.

Playing around with the setting- I love seeing little hints indicating where the kids are from and what game they're from.

Like, for example, if a v5 character references a group, place, or likewise from Seattle that's only found in Seattle. Perhaps they reference the Archie McPhee Seattle Store, even if offhandedly. Or perhaps they mention going to Pike Place Market. Or heck, even a reference to Seattle's well-known weather patterns, such as seeing it drizzle in a thread.

Sometimes people don't really think about where the kids are from, and as a result it comes off it could be taking place anywhere, and leads to weird things where people completely forget where they're from and how that'd effect them. I love seeing little things in pre-game that acknowledges "This is taking place in such-and-such a city, and the kids are natives there". Sure, most of the time you won't be writing as a native, but I like seeing people go out, do the research, and try to figure out details about their kids' hometown and how they'd feel about it. Someone's hometown can actually impact a lot (for example, clothing. Someone in a cooler climate isn't very likely to run around wearing a short skirt and a tank top, and it would be more practical for them to wear something more warm. If your kid's been living in the city this entire time, being tossed onto an island may be a bit of a shock to them. And so on).

I also like seeing things that make it clear which continuity it's from. I feel like there aren't enough hints on the main site that the kids are living in a world where teenagers have been abducted repeatedly. Sure, it may not be a good idea to go "OMIGOD KIDS GOT ABDUCTED" every other thread, and there hasn't been enough info for us to toss out something that might be slightly different due to the abductions (for example, presidential campaigns, since it'd probably be a discussion point in some way during elections). However, if someone manages to make a reference to the whole "kids got abducted" thing in pre-game, I actually like that! Or in Program, where a scene clearly takes place in Programverse as opposed to any other of the continuities (for example, a reference to guns being banned, mention of the four year terms, or signs that character may or may not be racist). Or in TV, where kids allude to the show in the Sandbox. Overall, I like seeing little hints of what continuity this is happening in without it being too blatant!

In short? I love seeing little details about the setting, both in terms of hometown and what continuity this is happening in.

I'll probably add some more later when I think of more.

Sorry to bring up another topic, but while editing stuff on the wiki I noticed something. Am I the only one who finds it interesting that none of the actual SOTF winners are confirmed alive? The only people who've properly survived the games have been AT members and escapees.

Ooh, some interesting stuff to talk about.

First off, in response to Kami's post, I sort of have my own feelings on a few points.

I love characters that are a stretch, as long as they're a stretch all around. I think the big issue I see sometimes is, handlers come in trying to do something new and unique and crazy, to stretch the mold of SOTF, but they're not willing to compromise at all. Basically, there's stretching, but the handler's not actually stretching at all personally. There's no growth or challenge; they're just doing the same thing they always do and it happens to be a thing that's not a very good fit for SOTF.

Basically, I think stretching requires thought and purpose, otherwise it's just ignoring the world/rules and that's no fun for anybody. I think your point basically covered this already anyways; I just wanted to make it a bit more explicit because as a mod there are few things more annoying than something completely unworkable where zero effort is made to bring it in line.

Which, funnily enough, brings me to another thing I like in SOTF: flexibility.

I really like it when handlers allow scenes and characters to react naturally. Often, I see situations come up that can't have possibly been what the handlers expected, fights losses or getting called out on things. It can be a huge moment, when a character loses a loved one or is forced to take a hard look at themselves.

The problem is, sometimes these things come at bad times. Maybe a handler went inactive, leading to a death where it wasn't expected. Maybe somebody completed dismantled your character's justifications, hitting on themes you'd planned to play close to the chest.

In these surprise cases, all too often, handlers just ignore the event, or minimize it or brush it aside, and soldier on. This results in character derailment and at worst can completely wreck the believability and relatability of a character.

On the other hand, rolling with these things, taking a chance and going with the craziness, examining a character's motivations and (better still!) not being afraid to let them change if change is the logical conclusion, is super cool. It keeps the characters dynamic, allows them to react and change, and keeps them internally consistent. It also lets me, as a reader, stay engaged. I can guess the arc of most killers in SOTF by now, just from what I've read so far. I love it when one surprises me as a natural result of everything that happens, especially when it probably wasn't the handler's first choice.

---

Moving on to TBH's point:

That actually is a very interesting point. I've mentioned it before, but I quite like that we've got a dead winner on the roster. Seeing the whole game end in near-pointlessness is actually rather fitting for the soul-crushing atmosphere.

I also really do hope to find out the fates of Dodd and Calvert someday. They're both characters with a lot of history and interest behind them, and I'd love to know what befell them, even if it's also horrible tragedy.

...it is kinda funny, though, how so far escapees have a much better survival record than winners, and that the winners tend to have horrible things happen to them (getting grabbed again, ending up in a standoff with the terrorists, getting murdered). Sorta reinforces that there really aren't any true winners in SOTF.

I don't know, I kinda like the mystery of what happened to the "winners". I always kind of like those type of things, where the characters disappears from the public eye only to be remembered by the few who knew them and go down as legends, where some say they're only myths. It's a bittersweet feeling to be honest. Sure, having some closure might be nice, but it wouldn't feel right to me. In reality, wouldn't you want to be obscure if people only remembered you for something like this?

So, what you're saying, brother, is that Everybody Loses? :B

I was tempted to make that joke, then decided against it...

Looks like it was made anyway

So, what you're saying, brother, is that Everybody Loses? :B

>:(

While I'm pretty sure it's really just coincidence - Dodd brought Adam back for v3 because he could, pretty much, and Bryan never actually finished v2 endgame; v3 epilogue is likewise unfinished, so we have no idea what's happened to most escapees in that game - I think it adds something to the game. Two winners are even confirmed dead (Riz and Sydney Morvran - the first winner of a proper SOTF), the test run winners always ended up dead or put in the next game, and the other two main games' winners have their fate up in the air. When you take that and consider that the only confirmed survivors have been those who broke the rules and escaped, going on to do some good (STAR/V3 escapees) or at least getting to return to their lives (V4 escapees) it gives the idea that you never really "win" or get away if you go along with Danya's game at all. The island just takes too much away to allow for it. I like it when accidental themes develop like that.

Some day...perhaps we shall find these things out.

It's one of those interesting accidents I like analysing.

So, I'm going to breathe some life into this thread with something that treads the line between a rant and proper discussion. I've been doing a lot of archive reading recently (most on Mini, but the subject is highly applicable here as well), and I've developed a new SotF pet peeve. I can't count how many times I come across something like this:

Alice stepped into the room, admiring the way each shaft of light caught her sword, playing off the razor edge, illuminating brilliant steel to contrast with the dull, muddy smear of blood near the tip.

She looked down at the room's sole occupant only after she'd finished examining the magnificent piece of steel in her hands. Her lips curled into a smile.

"Hi."

Alice stepped into the room with a sword in her hand. That wasn't good. Bob didn't have to stretch his imagination to know what would happen if she decided suddenly to attack.

"Hi."

"Um, hi," he responded uneasily.

Bob's response is, to put it bluntly, terrible, and there's nothing that makes reading threads more of a chore than summarizing other characters' actions, which is the focus of my post here. There are stacks of problems with this sort of response, so I'll jump right in:

1. Here's the most obvious: it's boring and repetitive. Here's a tip, Bob: I already know that Alice has just walked into the room with a sword, and I already know that she said "Hi." Want to know how I know this? I read her freaking post. You know, the one where she describes walking into the room with a sword and saying "Hi." I think this problem comes largely from the way SotF is written, which is more like a serialized piece of writing than a typical novel. You want things to make sense as you write them, and you want things to make sense for people who read each post as they're written. That's fine and dandy, but keep in mind that a. There are archive readers, and b. Serial readers aren't lazy. The latter is true pretty much by definition, in fact. In both cases, the reader knows what's going on in the thread. And both readers (the archive reader especially) are going to have a feel of the flow of events, and you totally wreck that flow by repeating what they've already read. There are posts out there that are literally 80-90% summarization, and there are threads where each post consists of summarizing 3, 4, 5 other characters' actions before tacking on one more action, every single post cycle. I don't have to emphasize how terrible a reading experience this is.

2. It's divorced of context. This can range from nearly unnoticeable to a crime against humanity, depending on whose posts are being summarized. Some people go pretty light on context, and that's their style. Some people, like me, can spend upwards of two-thirds of a post just establishing context. My writing would be very dull indeed if I simply stated what my characters did, because it's generally not action-heavy. Even if the summarized writer isn't of the navel-gazing type however, there's still plenty of flavor that gets blanched away in the process of reiteration. Look at all that's implied with Alice's writing. Even without context, there are plenty of things you can guess about her. She admires her weapon, enough that she pays more attention to it than a fellow human being. There's blood on the tip, which means both that she's likely killed someone and that she hasn't bothered to clean it. This, in turn, suggests that she's rather direct and no-nonsense in her methods. She's pleased to see Bob, presumably sitting unarmed in whatever room she's just entered. Bob, you can guess, is probably in trouble. And none of that comes through in Bob's summary of events. Oh, sure, he knows getting hit with a sword qualifies as a bad thing, but that's so bland, so much telling and no showing. Alice did the showing. Telling is just heaping on slag at this point. Now, I know there's a reason people summarize like this, but it leads to my next point:

3. It's lazy writing. Flat-out. I already mentioned how it falls decidedly on the wrong side of "show, don't tell", but this sort of summarization also allows the writer to completely avoid developing another writing skill, even if they're otherwise good about describing rather than stating; namely, establishing flow and chronology. Try this:

Bob looked up. His breath caught in his chest, hands moving to pat down his pockets in search of a weapon that wasn't there. He took a breath, tried to calm himself, to formulate a response that would tread the line between intimidating and non-confrontational.

"Um, hi," was all he managed.

It's not anything I'd frame on my wall (which goes for all of my little samples here), but I think we can all agree it's far better than the first response. Another thing I think we can agree on is that it's still clear what exactly Bob is responding to. Alice walks in, Bob looks up. Alice says her greeting, Bob responds in kind. Most posts are far more than two or three lines, but the principle is the same: the reader isn't stupid. They are not going to get lost - assuming, of course, that you didn't mess up terribly in your writing. I think that's a pretty small risk, though. Even if events aren't necessarily chronological, we're all human, and so we all have a good grasp on human behavior. If your characters act in a reasonable way, we're going to to put events in the most reasonable (and correct) order. I'd also like to touch on the whole "show, don't tell" thing again. While the first response was intentionally quite bad, this one shows much more about Bob and the scene in general. Bob is clearly nervous. He knows he's in trouble. He's confirmed to not have a weapon, though one might guess that he either had or is accustomed to having one. His natural reaction is to put on a show of bravado, but he's not especially good at it, which could be the result of any number of things.

So for my extremely brief summary (as I've already said everything and there's no reason to say it twice), finding more creative ways to establish chronology will hugely benefit both you as a writer and everyone else as a reader.

I can safely say that I dislike posts that do little but reiterate points made in the previous one. It is a trend that I really don’t understand, as I'm the kind of person who enjoys mixing things up as much as possible. When I post, I try and include original thoughts and interesting comparisons, sometimes coupled with brief illustrations. I only ever bring information from prior posts into mine when it strictly relevant to the action I'm currently performing.

Basically what I'm saying is that I always try to write like a novelist, whose every sentence needs to contain enough information to move the plot along at a decent pace and continually engage the reader's interest at the same time. I admit that I occasionally pad out a post with information that isn't strictly relevant to the situation at hand, but I try and make it so that these diversions at least relate to my character in some way.

On an unrelated note, there is something I'd appreciate a little help with.

I've been thinking about making a memory thread for a while now, but I've been let down by a lack of knowledge on the Seattle area itself. I'm looking for places my character could practice shooting in an outdoor environment. The legality of such an act doesn't really matter, only the location, which needs to be relatively isolated and away from large population centres. A quick trip to Google Maps reveals a few places, such as Tiger Mountain State Forest, that could be candidates, but if anybody with more information on the Seattle area can think of better place(s), I'd love to hear about it.

General info on the area in question is also valuable, such as climate and natural flora. I'd hate to state my character leans against a certain type of tree, only to be told a few days later that it doesn't actually exist in that region. Okay, I get hung up on those kind of things.

Research is your friend. I wrote a botanist for v4, and had to look up all the flora for Minnesota myself. I can say that the wikipedia article for Seattle is a good place to start, as would be the article for Washington state in general. From there, check external links. In a pinch, just google 'Flora and Fauna of Seattle' or something like that. The internet, vast wealth of resources and information that it is, should be more than willing to accommodate.

So I shot a gun for the first time today.

Holy fuck I finally understand the "SotF is unrealistic with guns" thing.

These kids should be killing themselves with the guns they get. Or at least fucking up horribly.

Hahaha, this reminds me of the time my brother tried to fire a shotgun. He was, like, eight at the time. The recoil knocked him flat.

I think a big thing is the type of gun. SOTF favors handguns, which I understand are a heck of a lot harder to use than rifles. I feel like a certain degree of suspension of disbelief is required for guns, but the thing that always bothers me is extreme accuracy. Shooting is hard!

Actually, shooting a handgun with solid accuracy is mechanically fairly easy if you understand how the sight works. I was talking with my ex-marine buddy about this stuff when we were driving back from shooting, and he explained how to aim on a handgun. It's really not *that* mechanically difficult to be a decent shot if you understand how to line up the sights.

Problem is, there is no way that the kids know how to do that out there. They should be missing left and right, and they should probably be misfiring/breaking the guns a lot, too.

Agh, yeah, to clarify: Shooting from the hip at a moving target, probably while also moving and possibly while being shot at yourself, is hard. Especially if that target is a kid you used to go to school with.

I think you've got a point there with guns. When I fired a rifle for the first time, it was fairly intuitive and... honestly, not the hardest thing out there to learn. However, there's a hell of a lot more support with a rifle crooked against your shoulder than a handgun held in two outstretched, possibly over-tensed and shaking arms.

Honestly, learning how to fire the shotgun wasn't that hard, either, but aiming it at a moving target was very difficult, and this was with a guy giving me instructions constantly.

I wouldn't say that hitting a moving target is hard; it just requires you to factor in a lot more variables at once then a stationary target. I find that slower-velocity rounds make for easier hits at medium range, as it becomes easier to predict the pattern of shot. As far as I've learnt, the harder a target is to hit then the more very small factors influence the outcome of the shot.

All this info given, however, I'd find it hard to believe any shot such as the one Murderweasel described above could hit in any scenario at all. I'd go so far as to say that any student on the island who didn't know how to a use a gun would be better off ditching theirs for something more familiar as soon as possible.

That's the point. Theoretically, none of these kids (or at least very few) have gun experience.

V4's accuracy is hilariously impossible.

Every time I've gone skeet shooting with a shotgun I end up with a massive bruise on the space between my shoulder and upper chest where the but of the gun rests because of the recoil. I'm stupid so I'll fire once and be like "That didn't hurt so much" and then after like, 4 I'm like "I'm a fool."


Rifles are stupidly easy to use and don't have much recoil. But I have no accuracy with them.

Also I'd like to call Rattlesnake to the stage to please post the drawing he made in v4 of someone shooting a shotgun at eye level sideways GANGSTA STYLE.

I kind of feel like these problems are alleviated somewhat by the fact that any weapon larger than a handgun is ridiculously scarce in SotF. That doesn't excuse the "fires a whole SMG clip and every bullet hits" problem, but I thought we got rid of that issue years ago.

I never said it was a very good picture.

Every time I've gone skeet shooting with a shotgun I end up with a massive bruise on the space between my shoulder and upper chest where the but of the gun rests because of the recoil. I'm stupid so I'll fire once and be like "That didn't hurt so much" and then after like, 4 I'm like "I'm a fool."


Rifles are stupidly easy to use and don't have much recoil. But I have no accuracy with them.

Also I'd like to call Rattlesnake to the stage to please post the drawing he made in v4 of someone shooting a shotgun at eye level sideways GANGSTA STYLE.

Try firing a Mosin-Nagant sometime. On paper they look amazing; very cheap and common, yet also very accurate and powerful. Then you realise that what is essentially a length a complicated pipe on a solid wooden stock hits your shoulder like a charging bull every single time.

On the other hand, I'd actually recommend it for beginners, as unless you use something like a sawn-off eight gauge, you will never notice recoil again.

So, random tangent and something that I've been thinking about over the past month.

Injuries and wounds - they're a pretty integral part of SOTF - being as the game is all about murdering your characters, but how they're portrayed has really given me cause to hesitate. Especially with my own characters.

About a month ago, I had an accident while coaching hockey where my face ended up getting really badly lacerated in several areas, giving me a broken nose and 11 stitches on four different areas of my face. It bled like a motherfucker - I'm talking like...a TON of blood loss, Anywho, the weird part about it was that it really didn't HURT that badly, per se. It was sort of strange feeling a lot of blood pouring all down my face, but there wasn't a whole lot of immediate pain. Just lots and lots of blood all over everywhere. It got stitched up, patched myself up, and all was well. But having the stitches in my face - especially fresh - it really limited my mobility. Losing so much blood, I didn't do a whole lot outside of sleep, and even after I got a lot of my strength back it really was kind of fucked for me to move around with any speed as I was really wary about tearing the stitches.

I think that in the future, when/if I do come back to play again, I'm going to go about portraying injuries and lacerations a lot more accurately - I'm pretty sure that most of our characters would be suffering a whole lot more than they tend to if they were to get cut or lacerated anywhere on their body.

Strange tangent, yes - but I was thinking "man, my SOTF character definitely would have been able to traipse through a jungle and badass it up by now" several times during my recovery. Good times. Anywho. Party on, folks.

Do people prefer long posts that are full of fluff and flavour or a short series of posts that flow together well and get the point going?

I prefer to make posts nice and long, about three-four decent paragraphs or so. Usually only about 30% of it will relate to physical actions, and rest to my character's perspective and thought process. I try my best to make things interesting from line to line, with a bit of exposition when relevent. So I guess my short answer would be 'somewhere in the middle'.

Hope this helps.

Well as a reader, I guess I like a mixture of both. It is nice to read posts with loads of detail and stuff but if every post in a thread is like that, I think it might be tiring to read and might stray away from the point. Short posts are good because it’s quick and easy to read and gets straight to the point and like you said they flow together. As a writer I think I’d lean more towards short post. This is mainly because I'm not the best writer in the word and I find it difficult to do loads and loads of writing in a single post. As a result of this, when I'm in a thread with people who do long posts, I do feel a bit crap with my little posts, as if I'm letting them down O_o. Then again, I do feel pleased with myself when I manage to do a good long post.

As a reader, I like fairly long posts because of the introspection they allow. Basically, in any post, a couple hundred words will generally be devoted to action, and the rest goes towards description, fluff, characterization, thought patterns and processes. So a 300-word post will generally just be description, dialogue, and action, while an 800-word post will be half or more justifications, thoughts, attitudes, and whatnot.

In my opinion, 600 words is the optimal target from which you can adjust according to your own style. 600 words is enough to get pretty much anything done while including all those juicy, character-developing thoughts and motives, long enough that you can get into their head and short enough that it's not just a wall of text. I personally shoot for around 800 in general because I like doing heavy introspection as a writer, but there's nothing wrong with running a tighter ship and shooting for 400 or 500. Another benefit of the 600-word target is that it's pretty much never jarringly short or long - it's generally to everyone's benefit to try to match post length as closely as possible, and an 800-word post between two 300-word posts just looks prolix while a 300-word post between two 800s seems overly sparse, while something in the 600 range will fit nicely in without deviating from your normal routine in the vast majority of cases.

As a reader and writer, it depends on the circumstances.

If a scene involves an interaction between two (or more) characters in which a lot is exchanged, I want things to be shorter so they actually flow smoothly. There's only so much rumination you can do before you become very redundant, and if every sentence said aloud is treated to four or five paragraphs of analysis that gets very tiresome. There's also an extreme tendency for posts to be long not for any real reason, but rather because the handler didn't edit well enough and left a ton of redundancies in (many, many times characters will think the same thing two or three times in a single post. Unless there's a specific and calculated reason behind this, and it's a conscious choice, it is a bad ting to have happen).

On the other hand, if a scene is largely internal, or is centered around the thoughts and feelings of a character (or a few characters), I want it to be decently meaty. A one-shot that's under five to seven hundred words, for example, is gonna have me raising an eyebrow and going, "Well, why did we need that?" Every character needs some depth, and often the only way to get that is to delve at some length. It allows ideas to develop more fully and for everything to make real sense. It often allows greater emotional depth.

Where I'm going is, it varies moment to moment, based on what's right. I always write until there's nothing else that needs to be said. Sometimes that's a lot of writing. Sometimes it's a few sentences.

On the whole, though, I notice that a lot of handlers try to hit the same ballpark every time, and in that case short is way better because it's free of the padding and redundancies and, while it may leave me scratching my head, it at least does not bore me. Padded posts are the absolute worst.

[Grand Moff Hissa]

[+] The General SOTF Discussion Thread Part Ten

I pretty much agree with what Toben said.

That said, I do prefer longer, more introspective scenes (and therefore the posts of those scenes). But long, introspective posts in the middle of a fight make no sense.

My post length varies tremendously. I like to think that each post is as long as it needs to be, but that probably isn't true.

Always short when I'm posting. Even long solo posts seem tiny compared to other people. Can't write much at a time. Is problem.

I'm curious, what would people generally consider to be an example of an excessively long post during an action scene? If they were writing one, how would they form it?

Personally, I enjoy fine detail. That might be a good thing or a bad thing, depending on the scene. But in general terms, expect some creepy loving description to be put into any fight scenes that I write.

Short, choppy, rhythmic sentences and quick scenes can make for tenser action, since everything will be happen in a short span of time.

Then again, detail is good. I'm the guy that spent a paragraph and a half describing a punch.

Excessive length for an action scene is when stuff becomes long enough that it disrupts the flow or strains credibility. That largely depends on the handlers involved and the scene.

For example, if there is no GMing going on, one handler having a post double the length of their thread partner's will often be disruptive, simply because it will end up looking like one character is sitting idle while someone tries to kill them. Excessive thought (especially in the form of internal monologues) can also be distracting. There's a big difference between breaking down a character's reasons for acting as they do (which is usually cool!) and providing super extensive commentary on the events of less than five seconds (which can be questionable).

Also, longer fights on the whole tend to have issues in that there's only so far that high schoolers trading blows without getting hurt is feasible. Handlers tend to be reluctant to let their kids get beat up too badly unrolled, or they basically ignore injuries after fights beyond occasional "That hurt" statements. Basically, what Dodd talked about a few posts upthread.

So, in short, an action post is too long when it a. is disruptive by comparison to other posts in the scene, b. is unrealistic in terms of ability to mull things over to a great extent and provide witty commentary while also getting torn up by machine gun fire, c. requires the kids to manage to not get hurt for long periods of time despite that making very little sense.

EDIT: Also, monologues during fights. Those basically never come off as anything but absurd.

As a writer my stuff end up being somewhat on the short side as I feel I have issues writing a long post that sounds about right. In general though I think as has already been mentioned it all depends. For conversions I feel that the posts should be kept relevantly shorty to help with the pacing, but everything else very much depends on the individual situation.

Change of topic!

A thing I've heard discussed a lot, and have mentioned in the past, has been how different versions have different feels, or atmospheres, about them. This isn't really a measure of quality, just a way in which they're different. I've been thinking about that, and my thoughts are as follow:

I think V1, in many ways, felt like Battle Royale, the manga, the RP. It had a lot of similarities, and in some ways it benefited from that. As a smaller game, with a looser setting, there was lots of room to experiment. There was also a lot of surprise, with many characters, even fan favorites, dying unrolled because it was narratively appropriate. While some handlers were trying to win, for sure (once winning was a thing that could happen, I mean), many more were there first and foremost for the stories, and would kill their kids off when it seemed dramatically apt. The game had an edge of unpredictability because of that.

It also had breadth and scope. Lots of characters would make alliances and come up with detailed plans and do silly, trivial things, and it often felt like real journeys. More than that, the journeys in question felt natural, because they were by and large created on the fly.

V1 also had a, um, gonzo edge to it, with the ridiculous premades and crazy happenings and such. This is probably what it is most infamous for, but it does have a sort of charm when viewed out of the context of everything being strictly literal canon.

V2 was polished in many way, and it also saw SOTF establishing its own identity. It's probably the version I'm least familiar with, but its legacy seems to be as the quintessential SOTF game. While retaining some of V1's weirdness, it added a lot more characters who seemed to matter and stack up as actual factors in the game. Notably, the game ran right, with nothing weird added in.

I think, on the whole, it felt very cohesive in a way probably not seen since. A lot of characters had very dedicated followings. Some of them are remembered fondly today.

V3 was the first version I had experience with when it was running, and to me it feels very dark. V3 saw gore and violence and shock tactics scaled up a ton, though not really for the better in many cases. It was also cohesive in a different way than V2, being largely built around a predetermined plotline that took over a tenth of the characters out of circulation for a long while.

V3 also saw the beginning of the realism revolution, where being "awesome" took more of a backseat (I'm not implying that realism was entirely unvalued in past versions, but V3 saw it ascend to a much greater degree than before).

V4 was big. Because of that, it didn't have as cohesive a tone as past versions, where I think a much smaller group of handlers working together produced a setup more likely to have everyone on the same page. What I think V4 excelled at, though, was individual stories. It was the version of greatest depth, I feel, because all the kids were in from the start. There was a good chance the dude randomly foddered on the second day had actual pregame time under his belt, a story and friends and such. Any character alive at the halfway point had been through stuff, not just in a referenced way, and so you could track their journey. At the same time, I think this has made it a pretty difficult version for casual reading, because there are a lot of things buried under the surface, a lot of excellent characters who just never broke through to the general consciousness.

This got a bit rambling and diverted, but I'd be curious to hear other perspectives on the different versions. You don't need to be an expert in them to comment; I'm basing most of my V1 and V2 experience on reading Dodd and Riz. How does everyone think V5 is likely to differ from past versions? Anyone else see any interesting comparisons to draw?

Alright, PSA time, since v5 regs are up and I want to get this officially out of the way.

Some of you may have noticed that whenever the topic comes up in here, I tend to be somewhat dismissive of "gory scenes". This is not always the case; I personally love looking at gory fiction with the right mood. Mortal Kombat fatalities make me crack up, I used to watch a lot of horror movies which often contain gore, and under the right circumstances I could enjoy a bloody, violent scene.

Emphasis on "with the right mood" and "under the right circumstances".

Even I, as an admitted gore hound, get bugged right the hell out whenever I see a ridiculously violent scene in SOTF. Like, I don't know, something like castrating someone and feeding their balls to Kenny. Or breaking each and every single limb with a hammer and then forcing them to choke on their own puke. Or... close to anything involving the genitals. Or ripping their guts out and choking them with their own intestines. Or anything like that. Probably you get my point; I don't like reading overly violent stuff in SOTF.

"But Kami!" you say. "I thought you were an admitted gore hound!"

I am! The thing is, I like my gore with context. Not just context, either; if there's a good reason for there to be gore, I'd be up for it. A lot of handlers use gore more for shock value than for storytelling purposes. And frankly, I can tell. If SOTF had been a story that the point was to be as shocking as possible, like, I dunno, an exploitation film or the above noted Mortal Kombat, I wouldn't mind it being a deliberately shocking death. But it isn't. And that's what bugs me; the point is to show these kids surviving (or not), and being twisted into horrible versions of themselves. I get Battle Royale had a lot of gory scenes, especially in the manga, but that doesn't justify something completely and utterly gory without good reason.

One of my issues with such things is that it's tasteless. I know it's an odd concept; there being such a thing as gore in good taste. Problem is, it comes off as very trashy whenever I have to read something like a girl getting her limbs ripped off and then her head repeatedly punched against the ground. While it does make me cringe in some cases, and it can be written effectively if you're a very good writer, most of the time it makes me cringe for the wrong reasons. It just comes off as, as I said, very trashy.

Another issue I take with such scenes is, well, it's a blatant attempt to get attention. Gore gets you a lot of attention, obviously, so a lot of handlers love to get this by engaging in it. The issue here lies in that it's actually pretty easy to tell when someone's trying to be shocking for attention, rather than using gore for storytelling purposes. In case you're curious; it's the tone that sets me off when gore is used as exploitation. In the cases of gore used as storytelling, it's often used in a way that flows well, and the tone stays consistent with the rest of the story/character, even if nothing like that happened before and possibly won't happen again. In addition, there's still a bit of sympathy left for the victim; they still have their own agency, even as something as horrible as being ripped apart by wolves happens to them.

Now with gore clearly used to exploit, there's a theme of objectification. The emphasis is less often on both of the characters' personalities and dynamic, and more on the act itself. Very rarely do characters who get this sort of death get a good one; it's clear that it's to establish the attacker as a HORRIBLE PERSON, rather to end someone's story in an appropriate manner most of the time. Keep in mind that when you are writing the person inflicting these things on someone else, that you are basically writing someone's last scene, and there's a good chance that a reader is following that someone and wants their story to end nicely. If they really like a character, it can come off as really insulting when they go out by someone ripping their spine out and it's treated in a very objectified and deliberately shocking way, rather than "Oh no. I liked Alice, and she got her spine ripped out!".

Yet another issue I have with this is that it's actually not as effective a method of horror as many people claim it to be. Sure, gore can make people cringe, and it can cause nightmares. But the issue here lies in the fact that we as a culture see a lot of it already. Just pop in a horror movie, for example, especially of the slasher genre. Those things are violent as hell. Or yet again, Mortal Kombat. Or even shows where you wouldn't expect gore; sometimes gore pops up in places you don't expect them. Point is, we live in a naturally violent culture to begin with; even this very site in itself is an example. What's the problem? Desensitization is the word here. If you've been seeing a lot of gore, then it takes more for you to be shocked by another instance of it. If you show gore, it's just gore, and while it can make some people cringe, others like me will go "meh, another example of someone getting their head chainsawed off".

I can list several things that can and would scare the shit out of me personally most of the time rather than gore, in anything. Gore isn't that frightening to me unless there is something else about the whole thing, after all. Psychological themes if done well? Certainly. Things that make me feel paranoid? Of course. Atmospheric horror? Definitely! The kind of horror that doesn't pop up until you think about it? Awesome! Gore alone? Eh, can make me squeamish, but it needs more meat to it to really keep me awake.

Finally, it ignores the fact that often "simple" injuries can actually be pretty brutal once you look them up. Things like gunshots, stab wounds, burn injuries, and so on can still be pretty disturbing if you do your homework. It comes off as redundant to write an overblown death scene when you could have a similarly disturbing effect by looking how brutal real world injuries can get, even if it's "just" a stabbing.

Keep in mind, however, I'm not against gore if it makes sense in context. This is a handler who wrote her self-insert's guts being shot out, after all. What I'm saying is, I dislike gore for shock value.

PSA over. You may now go about your business.

Also, I'm in a Mortal Kombat mood lately. Can you tell? : D

(Moved from random thoughts to here, cause Random thoughts is for the Random and this is Sotf talk)

For some reason, I haven't been excited enough for v5 as much as I feel I should or expected to be since registrations for the game proper first opened. Yet, I'm perfectly content as usual on mini. No idea why.

*Stuff about gory deaths*

Well, for one, I totally agree. Gore for gore's sake is generally not meaningful in any way. But something that I think should be added is the fact that a lot of the gory stuff (choking someone with their own intestines, etc.) doesn't make any sense in the setting.

What we need to keep in mind with those kinds of deaths is the thought, "would Susie be in-character if she stabbed a guy in the groin?". For the most part, no. In Main, almost certainly not. The only reasoning I could think of is, "pre-made psycho in SoTV who wants to be remembered and goes out of his/her way to do gory deaths so people remember him/her."

Outside of that specific context, most teens, no matter how crazed or violent, are not going to commit chainsaw-horror movie-style murders if a simple gunshot wound would do it.

On a related (but different) topic; what do you think is a good means for a death post?

Of course, we had a BDA, but is there a particular style of death that people like? Gunshot wound, describing them dying immediately (brain/bone/blood blast optional)?
Or perhaps some dying thoughts and words before they slip away to an afterlife?
Or simply implying what happens, then they die (a recent example being Emily Barnes, where her death simply says, "she landed hard", before she dies)?

I'm going to disagree on the generalization there, since we can't go saying how every single character is going to act in SOTF regardless of the setting. Some people might just go outright mad and act on the one too many horror flicks they saw in their childhood for all we know.

More to the point, would we even want everyone to act the same way when they go in the killing direction? Lord knows I'd get bored if every single character behaved identically, so I'm not going to condemn someone who gets elaborate with their killing if they can justify it. Gore for gore's sake is dehumanizing, agreed, but well used gore, as Kami said, works rather spectacularly.

As for styles of death:
Dying thoughts that happens just before they slip away, I find, tends to be a really crappy way to do it. If they're dying in someone's arms or just bleeding out somewhere, then that's one place it can work because they actually have time to reflect on it, but if it should happen whilst someone is choking them or beating their head in with a blunt instrument, then their sudden clarity and serenity throughout the situation is really quite jarring, I've found.

As for all the other deaths, I find the post just has to be something that will work in the situation, rather than a specific type of death, that will pull off dying nicely.

I like deaths that are interesting and different. That can be through minimalism, a unique take, a new chain of events, etc. I like deaths where handlers remember that most stuff doesn't kill you right away. I like deaths where the characters are scared, upset, maybe in denial. I am not a big fan of "dignity deaths", that is, deaths where the character dies like a martyr, feeling happy and peaceful and it's all framed like as good a thing as it can be. Unless it's really justified, those make no sense and upset my sense of realism, 'cause these kids don't want to die.

Umm... hmm... I like deaths that actually tie into a character's story, that keep them in character and are not rushed.

That's what I can think of off the top of my head.

(Also, I'll disagree that repeat kill styles are boring. They can be, yes, but if handled well the same physical action can carry very different emotional weight, consequences, etc. Also, shooting someone in the head and in the gut produce rather markedly different results, each traumatic in a very different way for the person being shot and the one doing the shooting. Also also, kids can try to shoot someone and fail and then end up locked in a struggle to the death. Basically, I like unique kills to come about naturally, be that as a result of the character's psychology or through them screwing up their attack or whatever, just not at random.)

Okay, new thing of the moment.

I hate hate hate when "young" is used as an adjective to describe students in SOTF. I'm not too huge for cycling adjectives in general, but young holds a special spot for being completely pointless because, by our very premise, every character in the game is young. It's about as useful as describing a character as "the human". It doesn't give phrases any more punch, and is actively disruptive to narrative flow, yet I'd say probably a quarter of the characters in the game get it at some point or another.

Anyone else have little things like that come up bafflingly often but don't do much for writing?

I dislike those descriptors in general. It comes up A LOT and I've noticed it more especially during read-o-thon . I can't tell you how many times Bridget was described as "the red head" or "the red haired girl." Similarly Maxwell was CONSTANTLY referred to as "The young Brit" "The ambitious young murderer/killer."

I just don't understand it. Girls especially tend to get identified by their hair color. "The blonde" "the brunette." Foreign kids will get called wherever they happen to be from. It drives me crazy. What's wrong with "Suzy went to the bus stop." Or "She went to the bus stop." I'd much prefer a name or a pronoun to some descriptor, especially since they tend to get over used.

Descriptors are fine if it's to emphasize something about the state the person is in. If someone just got the pulp beat out of them, sure, go with "The injured girl hobbled to the bus stop." Otherwise, just use a name or a pronoun. S' just my opinion

Please stop using descriptors. They come off as tacky and I have to go back every time I see one just to make sure the post is referring to the young blonde or the ambitious blonde. It doesn't ruin the flow of your post to reference characters by name. They have known each other for at least a year.

Overuse of descriptors was my big answer for that one, though I do have a pretty major peeve I've probably touched on before - summarization. We just read a detailed account of what Alice did, there's no need for Bob to tell us what's going on again. This is really egregious is threads with 5+ people (another thing I hate with an absolute passion) because you can literally have a thread that's mostly summarizing - if 6 people are writing 500 words a round and each person spends 55 words per intervening post summarizing it, that's a 225/275 split between action and reiterating. Most of the time it's not that bad, of course, but there are plenty of ways to clue the reader in to where each character's actions fall in chronologically with very little direct summary, even doing without completely if thread isn't huge and the scene is engaging.

Here's another question, just to get the ball rolling again;

If one thing changed between V4 and V5, what do you want it to be?

Personally, the biggest issue I noticed with V4 was a lot of people just...sort of...killing people without much characterization. People like Reiko Ishida, Ema Ryan and most infamously Maxwell Lombardi were well-known for that. The big players like them were most guilty of this, and I hope with V5 the players have some better justifications for murdering classmates.

Huh, somehow missed that there was a post here.

Much as villains are one of the things I constantly bemoan, my two big changes I want to see are:

1. Less fodder. So many V4 kids basically did nothing, often because their handlers just weren't that interested. This was a huge pain to read. The current rules system has removed the bulk of the incentive for having tons of characters and for adopting anyone and everyone you can, so that should take care of some of it. I just wanna see handlers only writing folks they are interested in, though.

2. Good activity. V4's activity was garbage, overall. Even characters who stayed on the right side of the rules often only got a post every ten days or so, resulting in them having comparatively brief and not super deep stories (especially since often characters with infrequent posts also got very small posts). On a related note, less characters hopping from oneshot to oneshot to avoid actually doing anything. In my opinion, oneshots should be used only when they actually tell an important or interesting part of a character's story; in V4 oneshots where nothing happened were the go-to method of stalling for two more weeks.

I've mentioned before how inactivity and fodder hurt the handlers responsible for them as well as the game overall, and I'd love to see both vanish in V5.

Activity is a big one.

I noticed that when reading through the V4 archives, I would always check the date posted compared to the previous post to see if Handler Y took 11-13 days to post after handler X, and if they did, I would facepalm for a few moments and audibly say "you're doing it wrong" (this happened way too frequently).

As Toben pointed out in that thread he linked, the minimum number of posts to get through V4 without inciting the wrath of SOTF_Help was 30 posts. As he also pointed out, 30 posts is NOT a lot at all.

If you are simply biding your time and putting off posting as long as possible, you can expect that people are going to dislike roleplaying with your character because your lack of inactivity is holding up their own character's development, due to post order rules. You can also expect that when your minimum post count character gets rolled, absolutely no one is going to want to hero them, even if the few posts you have are absolutely amazing, simply because your character is so annoying to roleplay with.

/rant

The prime hope is fewer characters, which has already come to pass. Fewer characters engenders several things:

1) Less fodder. Both in terms of each handler having fewer characters that they can view as expendable, and in a dialing back of this resource mentality that pervaded V4. When there are 276 characters in a V, it's hard to think anything other than, "holy shit, I have next to no chance of winning and a pretty low chance of even getting close to the end". Hence the emphasis on heroes and swaps (often attached to deals) and the campaigning over precious roll nulls, which turned secondary characters, respectively, into "a token by which I can swap for my flagship/hero deal someone to hero my flagship later" and "a method by which I can acquire a roll null". The idea that SotF is a game first and a story second is something that, baffling as it is, actually took some root in V4. A lower character cap remedies this, if just for the fact that ~150 as compared to 276 puts people in less of a mindset of "that number is a great obstacle that I will try to overcome".

2) Less scripts. Try to come up with an engrossing, unique arc for your SotF character to have, or a compelling twist on a known arc. Now try to come up with four. The fact is that V4 contained a lot of characters falling into basic scripts rather than creating plots and engaging with themes, and that too was largely a product of a huge character cap. Handlers paid attention to some of their characters but let others languish, and high character cap + low thread cap (in "areas where I want my characters to be") led to high characters per thread. Thus the well-known V4 clusterfuck wherein a bunch of characters are present and making haphazard motions towards doing something but are mostly sitting around waiting for someone else to create a narrative. With fewer characters piling up in a thread, there's less of a diffused responsibility and more of an impetus for you yourself to start creating a story that this thread can be about.

3) Less attention-grabbing. 276 characters are hard to stand out from. If you want your characters to be well-known and popular enough for people to hero them (see #1) or give them death rights that you think are narratively important, it's often a reasonable course of action to have your character do something that can get them noticed. This led to a lot of humor in v4 that felt like it was hoping to turn into a meme (he said, having written the "sword cane" post), but also in the issue that Espi mentioned wherein characters would kill just to kill. Getting early kills or a high kill count is a great way to get noticed, and a lot of this stuff is temporarily rewarded. We complain about the big-name killers and how awful they are now, but those were actual handlers (again, including me!) who gave them death rights.

A brief addendum to 3) is that perfectly good characters that weren't even attempting a spotlight-grab were often unfairly umped in with the spotlight-grabbing antics. For example, while I may disagree with nearly all of them, there are many legitimate reasons to object to Liz Polanski. In another category, however, were the claims, explicitly leveled in chat, that she was bad for the game and story was bad for writing her because now every character had to spend their posts reacting to Liz stuff and story was deliberately hijacking the game. Let the record show that this was petty and gross! SotF is a collaborative writing site for a reason, not a zero-sum attention grab.

And this ties into a fourth wish, but one that's not numbered since it's not really tied to the lower handler cap. I hope V5 contains less shitty passive-aggression and that the site's culture becomes actually conducive to constructive criticism. Things like the Read-a-Thon are doing a great job of this, but in general there's been an arc I've seen so many fucking times on this site wherein a character gets a lot of public praise before it comes out, some months later, that everyone hated that character and thought they were shit from the get-go. None of that is helpful. If the character was shitty, that already happened, and concerns about a shitty character voiced while they're still alive and being written are far more useful from a "if this needs salvaging, can this be salvaged?" perspective than sneaky private mentions of it that only become public once the handler in question has left the site or once the character is long-dead.

Again, I don't except myself from this. A fun fact about me in V4 is that I encouraged someone to write a post whose entire purpose was mocking another handler's style. That post actually got made, and I thought it was funny as shit at the time. But I also tried, at other points, to offer polite and reasoned attempts to help handlers improve their writing, and this is something I and every other vet should be trying to do way more, for newbies as well as for each other, in V5. We need a culture that doesn't stigmatize the idea of PMing someone and saying "Hey, I have some concerns about your character and an idea or two on how they could be improved, do you mind if I talk a bit about them?" Of course, everyone should take no for an answer, and a handler reserves the right to refuse both accepting a given piece of criticism (sometimes it is actually not helpful) or even hearing it in the first place.

So yeah, this is what V5 ought to be like. If you think something about my writing is shitty or there's an uncomfortable implication that it doesn't look like I'm aware of, please tell me. I'll try to do the same with all y'all, though if the response is "Sorry Jonny, I'm not interested in hearing what's inevitably going to be a ten-page essay on post-apocalypses and the filmography of Michael Bay", I understand and will shut up.

One of the things that irked me a lot about v4 was pointed out by Rattle (even thought his post was before Espi's question). I dread reading long topics simply because 90% of the content usually is just reaction. I understand that character X would be shocked by character Y's actions, but it gets annoyed when the handlers of characters L-W also say their character was shocked. It gets soooo repetitive. Also, there's the fodder that others seemed to have pointed out as well. There's also the inactivity. I have a feeling I'll be very guilty of this later on (I'll try to post often however), but it kinda gets annoying waiting on someone.

And this ties into a fourth wish, but one that's not numbered since it's not really tied to the lower handler cap. I hope V5 contains less shitty passive-aggression and that the site's culture becomes actually conducive to constructive criticism. Things like the Read-a-Thon are doing a great job of this, but in general there's been an arc I've seen so many fucking times on this site wherein a character gets a lot of public praise before it comes out, some months later, that everyone hated that character and thought they were shit from the get-go. None of that is helpful. If the character was shitty, that already happened, and concerns about a shitty character voiced while they're still alive and being written are far more useful from a "if this needs salvaging, can this be salvaged?" perspective than sneaky private mentions of it that only become public once the handler in question has left the site or once the character is long-dead.

Again, I don't except myself from this. A fun fact about me in V4 is that I encouraged someone to write a post whose entire purpose was mocking another handler's style. That post actually got made, and I thought it was funny as shit at the time. But I also tried, at other points, to offer polite and reasoned attempts to help handlers improve their writing, and this is something I and every other vet should be trying to do way more, for newbies as well as for each other, in V5. We need a culture that doesn't stigmatize the idea of PMing someone and saying "Hey, I have some concerns about your character and an idea or two on how they could be improved, do you mind if I talk a bit about them?" Of course, everyone should take no for an answer, and a handler reserves the right to refuse both accepting a given piece of criticism (sometimes it is actually not helpful) or even hearing it in the first place.

Yes. This.

I tend to see a lot of bashing when certain characters are mentioned in chat. It is one thing to dislike a character and kindly point out what is wrong with them. It is another thing to take pot-shots at the character and the handler who wrote them. I don't think any of us would want pot-shots leveled at us or our characters (I would probably start crying due to my horrid self esteem), but I am fairly sure ALL of us would be open to some nice, constructive criticism (I know for certain I like any constructive criticism I can get). Overall, like Jonny says, we should all try and help each other improve rather than bash "Handler A" when "Handler A" isn't in chat.

So yeah, same as Jonny, if you think my writing is objectively shit or I have made some sort of unfortunate implication, feel free to PM me about it. I would much rather have something brought up directly to me rather than talked about behind my back. I will also try to do everything in my power to point stuff out that I found to need improvement to you guys, but you don't have to listen to my rants on the symbolism of bananas if you don't want to.

Hey, I'll outright say anything about your character that I'd say when you're not around TO YOUR FACE. So there's that. Food for thought and all that junk.

Ooh, yes. Yes, talking is good. This point is kinda where I got started on my SOTF Resolutions thing (and is the impetus behind the great V4 Comment-A-Thon ><).

I think that SOTF has this unfortunate idea that:
a. criticism necessarily equates to disliking a character
b. disliking a character in some way equates to disliking that character's handler
c. it's better not to say anything than share your opinion and risk falling prey to a. and b.

Basically, I like most of the people on SOTF, even the folks whose writing I don't dig. Some of the few people I've ever disliked, I've actually thought were great writers.

For a long time during and after V4, I kept very quiet about how I felt unless asked or unless I was talking in private with one or two handlers. The main reason for this is that, as a staffer, I try to be approachable and generally unbiased. I have strong feelings about characters, especially when it comes to late game. I, too, noticed that handlers often said nice things they didn't mean. I also noticed that often, when one person spoke out, that toppled the house of cards, or, worse changed the status quo so that it was now not okay to enjoy the character.

This isn't new. V3 had it bad. Of the Endgamers, I'm pretty sure only Lulu was never the receiver of both types of pressure. It took ages before folks could discuss Lenny without it going badly. In retrospect, I think V3 probably had the strongest Endgame cast of a main version (V2 gives it a run for its money, but V2 Endgame's real strength comes from its cohesive plot).

Anyways, I've meandered off the point. Nobody should be afraid of sharing their opinions, both good and bad, as long as they are politely framed. Nobody should read too much into those opinions, either. As a personal example, TBH and I are buddies and I know he absolutely loathes one of the characters I wrote over on Mini. It's just a matter of taste, nothing personal, and we both know that. With most things, it's like that. Heck, the few scenes in SOTF that have offended me, I know are usually not meant that way, and went down bad paths through unfortunate ignorance rather than any malice. That makes it even more important for folks to be able to talk, because while a one-time mess up isn't too bad, repeat incidents can take things out of the "It was just a writing goof" realm and start getting people actually mad.

So, yeah, that's a very important thing people have mentioned, and I'd like everyone to feel comfortable sharing opinions, but at the same time taking that further into mockery is bad.

Goodness, I really need to catch up with everything sotf again. Getting there. Now that I'm back I need to finish my 2 other profiles and do whatever pregame stuff I started. Just, finding time to really concentrate on here for the past months have been limited, hopefully I get more chance like I used to soon.

Also, I'm wondering if v5 will have those yearbook scrawling things later on once the real game starts (gosh, gotta do more pregame still, why am I so slow. >_> )

Yep! It will. Probably pretty soon here, actually; maybe when the application deadline is announced.

So, I have a question: is knowing martial arts really that helpful beyond giving an advantage of stamina/pain tolerance/etc.? Specifically, are the various techniques really useful in a hand-to-hand situation?

I'm fairly new to the site, but as I've been reading through previous games, I haven't really seen any situations where martial arts was used in a fight. I'm currently a senior in high school and I know exactly zero people who have ever been in a fight that amounted to much more than two people flailing at each other.

I'm not bashing anyone with characters that know martial arts or saying that it can't be an advantage, but it just seems to be overrated to me.

Having just wrote a character that can do martial arts over on Mini (not that she'll be doing it anymore, but hey), I can say that it's really not that big a deal from my perspective. In a sense I suppose it's not that much different from a character who knows how to operate a gun, in that it just changes how the actual post might play out. In the end of the day deaths are pretty much always choreographed anyway, so whoever has the advantage in a fight will only make a difference in terms of how the scene plays out. Important, but also dynamic, which is good..

Let's face it though, most advantages and disadvantages have very minimal effect on how a character performs in the game. Instead they just serve as more of a thing to think about when reading and writing their story, as well as a way to keep kids nice and realistic in that no-one's perfect or perfectly awful.

I've got a buddy who's a serious martial artist (second degree black belt, been doing it for about ten years). A moron at school tried to choke him once. That fight lasted less than five seconds, and ended without the guy getting seriously hurt because my friend was totally aware of what he was doing and knew exactly how to take someone out of action without making it a problem or dangerous.

That said, his advice on what to do if stopped by a mugger with a gun or a knife is, "Give them your money politely and don't make it an issue."

Martial arts is super useful in the context of stopping someone from messing you up when they're not out to kill or don't have good equipment for doing it. It's moderately useful in other situations, but much, much less so. I think an issue on SOTF, though, is that people who write martial arts are often only loosely familiar with the theory behind it, which reduces it to "his punches hurt more".

But yeah, on the whole it's not gonna save you against a lot of stuff you see on the island, and even trained people make lots of mistakes. And that's not even getting into styles that are more about the sport than the self defense, because from what I'm told those can actually cause issues if, say, you're trained to always pull punches to avoid hurting your sparring opponent; in a pinch, you may well default to muscle memory that says to softball it.

[Grand Moff Hissa]

[+] The General SOTF Discussion Thread Part Eleven

Having just wrote a character that can do martial arts over on Mini (not that she'll be doing it anymore, but hey), I can say that it's really not that big a deal from my perspective. In a sense I suppose it's not that much different from a character who knows how to operate a gun, in that it just changes how the actual post might play out. In the end of the day deaths are pretty much always choreographed anyway, so whoever has the advantage in a fight will only make a difference in terms of how the scene plays out. Important, but also dynamic, which is good..

Let's face it though, most advantages and disadvantages have very minimal effect on how a character performs in the game. Instead they just serve as more of a thing to think about when reading and writing their story, as well as a way to keep kids nice and realistic in that no-one's perfect or perfectly awful.

That's true, and I don't actually know anyone in real life who is skilled in martial arts either, so I can't speak from experience on how it would affect a fight. I was just curious in general.

As far as martial arts, I'd say it's not much use because kids have weapons and it's really a hand to hand kind of thing. It's biggest advantage to me is that it might make you more agile and quick.

I think the only time it ever actually helped me was when I had a kid who was on the wrestling team who ended up rolling around on the floor with another kid from the wrestling team on the island.

I put Jaq in for martial arts because I wanted her to be different for a cheerleader. It also seemed to fit with her anti-government motiff but that's because I listened to a lot of Anarchy Club (see sig).

On another note, I've been getting frustrated by the fact that after I podt in a thread, it doesn't seem to go anywhere. But I am realizing that while my characters are in threads, I'm not letting them do much, which therefor makes it hard for other characters to react.

Writer's block happens when you are not sure how characters would react. If characters don't act, there can be no reaction. Likewise, drunk internet posts happen when you shoot flavored vodka, and I am going to get off the internet now.

It was smirnoff too. Not even anything to be proud of. Happy Easter!!!

Anyway, I will be a more assertive writer. This is my pledge.

On martial sport vs. self defense there's a lot of counter arguments for the "sport doesn't work on the street" defense.

The biggest idea is that lots of self defense techniques tend to maim, or kill an opponent, and can scarcely be used against a resisting opponent (sparring) and so their utility is limited. Meanwhile sport martial arts can spar and use their techniques in full force or near full force with a person actively resisting, which means you're learning stuff that can be used against someone trying to not let you do them.

martial arts

Pretty much anything in the Advantages and Disadvantages sections means complete shit when it comes to who actually has "the advantage" on the island. Saying that your character is easy to get along with and well-liked does not compel other characters to be accommodating to you or be more easily manipulated by you, and saying that your character's awkward and not very socially capable does not prevent them from forming friendships and alliances on the island. Similarly, martial arts training does not give any "advantages", because the way a fight goes down is always going to be the result of a negotiation between involved handlers and not a comparison of stats. If a character with no martial arts training just got kill rights on a character with a red belt in BJJ, all that does is narrow the scope a little of what kind of kills are possible. Specifically, it makes it a little less plausible for the fight to go down along the lines of the untrained character choking the BJJ expert out.

Here are the things that martial arts training, or firearms training, or survival training, or any of these things actually do, in a practical sense:
1) They maybe get you some kill rights that you wouldn't otherwise get, or get you an offer for a cool fight scene you wouldn't otherwise get. Some handlers want their characters to die in specific ways, and dying against a martial arts expert is potentially (though not very often) a criterion that a rolled handler might be interested in.
2) Okay now the important one: it informs your character's mentality. Martial arts training isn't just something wherein you flip on a fight switch and now you're in fight mode and you've got better fight stats. It's a way to inform your character's reactions to his or her situations, a lens to view everything through. Being a martial artist might lead to a character being overconfident in their chances in a fight, or might lead to a disciplined, regimented approach to the horrors of the island, or any number of reactions or combinations of reactions. The advantage of including martial arts in your character's biography is that it opens up a set of interesting mental and emotional processes.

So... largely the same as any other hobby. Basically, imagine there's a separate "real advantages" section in your profile, and then put everything even remotely interesting about your character in there. Those are all the things that come pre-packaged with your character and give you opportunities for interesting scenes or emotional arcs. Martial arts goes here too.

If you want to read a character for whom martial arts is a huge, huge advantage (not in fight scenes, though maybe in fight scenes too? I don't actually read those), look at Grim Wolf's Mirabelle Nesa in V4. Just go for the first few posts, even, and you'll see what I mean.

I agree with Jonny and also would like to add a personal bit about my process with advantages and disadvantages from a staff standpoint.

I'm pretty picky when it comes to critiques, and one thing I always jump on is advantage/disadvantage balance. I like to see profiles a. have at least two of each and b. have them be both diverse and legitimate.

This is not because they bring a huge amount to the table on the island. Maybe, way back in V1-early V3, they meant a bit more. Back then, fights got a lot of attention and screen time and were a big focus for many handlers. Nowadays, that's a lot less a thing and even when it is most handlers can do a pretty good job of whipping fun stuff up for totally unskilled characters. For my part, I informed my characters' fighting techniques and abilities through the media they'd have been exposed to, which is the lens through which most of us encounter violence. This is where "It worked for Han Solo!" as a combat tactic comes from and such.

What advantages and disadvantages are very good for, though, is displaying that a handler has spent some time getting to know their character as a multidimensional thing. Every person in the world has a few good things about them and a few bad things about them, and asking for advantages and disadvantages forces the handler to flesh some of those out (in the specific context of a death game, granted). It's an exercise in creative thinking. This is also why I hate, upon asking for more disadvantages, seeing a preexisting injury or medical condition tacked on. It's not delving deeper; it's adding a new thing that's usually not very integrated into the rest of the character. (Of course, this isn't a complaint at all about characters who are conceived this way from the start because the writer has a legitimate interest in exploring the scene potential created by such a thing.)

I want there to be at least as many disadvantages as there are advantages because that shows that a handler is thinking about their character as something other than perfect. It's all too easy to get caught up in characters being cool or awesome (I imagine every handler on the board has some experience with that). Characters doing cool stuff can be great fun, but only if there's some core behind that, some reason to care about them or some adversity they overcome in completing their challenge. It's the reason so many people claim to dislike Superman; if he's all-powerful and always makes the right choice, who wants to read about him?*

Often, disadvantages are where the human elements in characters come from. They're your characters flaws and idiosyncrasies, the stuff that can be interesting to read about. Having an idea of that stuff before you start can be a huge help.

So, balance is the key to advantages and disadvantages, but less balance between characters and more balance within a character, proof of a thorough amount of thought and interest in the character as a person in a way which is often hard to get at in a bio.

This is also why phoned-in disadvantages are a thing I pretty thoroughly try to work out of profiles. Since every character can, if thought of as a person, have issues that they can be confronted with, it's pretty lame to see someone go "He's not trained with knives".

Similarly, I dislike characters with "no real advantages" because that is, again, setting up a very flat character for the island, which is no fun to read about.

I feel like I'm forgetting stuff or being unclear, but I forgot I have a thing to go to today, so I'll maybe clarify in a later post. ><

*Yes, I realize that is a huge oversimplification of Superman that bears little resemblance to the reality of his comics. It's a reason other people use that makes a good illustrative example, especially since I'm leery of using "Mary-Sue" in an explanation for the sake of clarity for those who may be unfamiliar with the term.

*Yes, I realize that is a huge oversimplification of Superman that bears little resemblance to the reality of his comics.

I'm just going to shake my head at you in the corner for perpetuating this negative sterotype of Superman.

So, in trawling the V1 board to update my lengthy treatise on rolls in SOTF, I was struck once again by how different the culture seems. People were really, really involved in tracking the game as it went on, talking characters, hypothesizing about the plot, etc. It's kind of cool, and is really getting me excited about V5 again.

Also, at this point it appears V5 will have ~140 characters. I think that's a pretty good number, being solidly above V1 and V2, but not quite as far out there as V3 or V4. It is, I think, around the number of V3 kids who didn't get killed in their first thread.

Necrooooooooooooooooooooooo.

In all seriousness, now that v5 has started, this thread should get some good use

Holy fuckballs that was surprising.

You know what I'm talking about.

We all knew somebody was going to do it. Let's be honest.

I'm just glad, as I said in chat, that it was much, much better than Mr. Pierce.

This is true. ._.

But yeah, it was a pretty good first death, which is a nice way to kick off the version.

Dang. I knew that someone had to be the first death... I just wasn't expecting it to be him.

[+] Spoiler

i wasn't expecting him either. but then in chat i saw somebody asking if there were any other cliffs on the island... then it came right away and I was back to being surprised.

Especially because reading that thread you're thinking, "Oh shit, Michelle is about to die..."

I was surprised, to say the least.

Yeah, um. Wow. Was not expecting that and

[+] Spoiler

I'm in the thread. That's what I get for having a paper to write today

So, I haven't been able to read a ton today (fucking essays how do they work), but here is my catalog of major events thus far. Others should feel free to add whatever I miss, because holy fuck so much posting:

[+] Spoiler

First Death (Dave Russell)
First Gun Shot (Theo Fletcher)
First Person Shot (Hansel Williams)
First and Second Declarations of Intent to Play (Miranda Millers, Matt Vartoogian)
First Physical confrontation (Yazmin Carroll and Katy Warren)

I thought of what I was gonna say on my Yearbook Scrawlings but then forgot.

Guys, I am so so proud of everyone here, for a reason that sounds kinda stupid but is a huge deal to me. SOTF's grammar has, on the whole, improved in leaps and bounds since the start of V5 pregame. I see people who used to make typos every third sentence clearly slowing down and taking the time to do some proofreading and editing, and even if it's still not perfect, it just makes things read so much better and look so much nicer. I'm sure this has been a lot of work for people, so I just wanted to give everyone a huge thumbs-up and say to keep up the good work.

This is not scientific at all, but from what I've observed, I think the top three most referenced older characters thus far are:

1. Riz
2. Brook
3. Maxwell

Which makes sense, since players always get discussed. I also discounted Sierra and Josie, as they were in the tape; counting them they win by a mile.

I'm going to be doing a lot of reading, but I've only found one Brook reference so far (Joe Carrasco). Don't tell me where the other ones, if any, are yet. I'll find 'em. XD

A quick count (this may be wrong!) suggests that only 36 rostered characters have not debuted yet.

A quick count (this may be wrong!) suggests that only 36 rostered characters have not debuted yet.

Is that a good number? Or a bad number? Because that is about 1/5 of the characters, which you could say is a lot.

We're two days in, it's no big deal.

Please don't tag spoilers.

Please don't tag spoilers.

Why not?

Well it is an 'all things SOTF' discussion thread. Not much point. Also most things spoiler worthy will go around double quick.

Does that mean that we can all stop dancing around the fact that Dave Russell died first?

Yes, yes it does.

A quick count (this may be wrong!) suggests that only 36 rostered characters have not debuted yet.

Is that a good number? Or a bad number? Because that is about 1/5 of the characters, which you could say is a lot.

It's a very, very good number, considering we've only been rolling a short while.

A quick PSA:

Guys, it's a good idea to use your character's name in every post they are in, ideally the first time you refer to them. I've been hitting a lot of posts that will just jump in with "She did X. She thought Y." and never identify the character. Especially if the handler has multiple characters and there's nothing distinctively identifying in the post, this is bad. It confuses the reader. Worse still? It confuses the person updating the activity list, and while any mistakes there would definitely fall under "Staff Error", it's still better to avoid in the first place. Especially since, you know, we want characters to be established and that's harder if nobody knows who they are or has to do a lot of digging to find out.

I now return you to your regularly scheduled SOTF Discussion Thread.

http://s10.zetaboards.com/SOTF_V2/topic/7456927/1/

Is there a "Like Button" for this?

If that thread becomes a twitter battle between all the survivors of V4, I will love it forever.

So, with first rolls up, it's time for one more PSA:

Never derail a character or scene to get a kill. Seriously. It's not worth it, and is the quickest possible way to find your character on the bad end of handler reaction. Far better to pass up a kill in favor of doing your character justice.

That's no fun.

Because I feel that this is a very important topic to address, here's a PSA:

Always think long and hard on how you use your hero card. Never just give it away.

This doesn't just involve hero deals, which aren't supposed to be recognized anyway. Deals are genuinely a bad idea, they never come out the way you invisioned and they are just not worth the risk involved.

But this advice is more basic than that. The hero card is an extremely powerful tool, only second to the rare null card, and with great power comes great responsibility.

Think of it like this; there is a right time and a wrong time to use your hero.

Use your card at the right time and the character you save can soar even farther! They might even go on to win! Wouldn't that alone make you feel awesome, like a real hero.

Use it at the wrong time, however, and suddenly the character you just heroed for the last roll has just become the victim of a swap card. They're going to die anyway! What a kick in the teeth, eh?

Don't take this the wrong way. This doesn't mean that you can't use it. It's your card! All that I suggest is that you use discretion when you're thinking of using it. It might seem like a given thing but... It can be kind of hard to fight the temptation.

Some of the v4 vets might remember what happened before. There was a huge percentage of handlers who used their heroes near the beginning, and it turned out to give everyone involved a significant disadvantage. I should know... I was one of them. By blowing the hero card early, I found myself unable to save several of my favorite characters down the road. It totally sucked! I know several other handlers who had very similar experiences, both in V4, V3, even V2! And this was when the character count was four instead of three!

Listen, while winning or making it far at all should make you feel very proud, it's no fun being unable to do anything when your favorite character is on the chopping block. And if only you had your hero...

So when using your hero cards, THINK BEFORE YOU SAVE!™

Ciel's advice is very wise.

Personally, I always come up with a list of kids I'd save. It's usually pretty short. Then, if/when one gets rolled and nobody else is stepping up to save 'em, I'll toss my card down.

Here's a fun immature little game to play.

If you don't already know, the word 'bags' is (now rather old-fashioned) British slang for 'trousers'. Bearing this in mind, now reread some SOTF posts and see what's changed.

My personal favourite is this one.

Never thought I'd get a post referenced in those terms of context.

Never thought I'd get a post referenced in those terms of context.

Aww, I liked the old version better.

So yeah, sorry I haven't really had anything of substance to say. I'm still ploughing my way through the entire V5 section and still wishing I'd started reading way earlier than I did, but the end is in sight now. My aim is to finish in time for the first inactive adoptions, which will hopefully be the point at which I can start contributing to the actual game.

On a different note, I've been toying with the idea of creating a complete SOTF narrative chart, similar to xkcd #657. Would anyone be interested in this? I mean I'll probably make it anyway because I'm the kind of dullard who loves reducing things down to pretty technicolour graphs, but would anyone else find it amusing and/or useful?

On a different note, I've been toying with the idea of creating a complete SOTF narrative chart, similar to xkcd #657. Would anyone be interested in this? I mean I'll probably make it anyway because I'm the kind of dullard who loves reducing things down to pretty technicolour graphs, but would anyone else find it amusing and/or useful?

Oh my god. All these colors. They're like lines, but they're melting in strange different directions and curving and swirling.

I knew that wasn't just tobacco in that nargile pipe.

But yeah, if you've got the mental capacity to create such an interesting piece of work, I'd love to see it. Though with our 152 characters in v5, I might hold off until we get to like, the top eight or so. With the final announcement, the mods can post the narrative chart of how all the finalists got there.

And don't apologize. I'm sure you'll net yourself a character and we'll see you in game soon enough. Feel free to hop on chat from time to time too~

[+] Spoiler

First Death (Dave Russell)
First Gun Shot (Theo Fletcher)
First Person Shot (Hansel Williams)
First and Second Declarations of Intent to Play (Miranda Millers, Matt Vartoogian)
First Physical confrontation (Yazmin Carroll and Katy Warren)

[+] Spoiler

So, both first and second deaths of the version are awarded to the same handler (Slamexo). Has anything like that ever happened before?

A quick scan of the wikia says that Slam Dunk made history. Two characters killed right in a row from one another, yowch. I can only imagine something similar happening of a handler with a ton of characters goes terminal and their whole clan gets fed to bears. But I don't think that that's happened in such a grand scale.

On the plus side, since we're in v5, Slammy is a bit less likely to be rolled again since he has only one character that can be hit by the rolling dice of death.

We've seen similar before, though not at the very start of a game. In V1-3, though, handlers would often run through lots of their kids in short order, because they could replace them. Also, Gambit went through three (out of four) characters by the end of first rolls in V4.

Lately I've been wondering how you all deal with hypocritical characters. Hypocrisy exist, but what has to be done to avoid being inconsistent characterization. My first thought was that it could be pointed out in the narrative, but on second thought, I feel like this could become redunant information that just makes posts longer than necessary.

So, thoughts on how to handle hypocritical characters?

In my opinion, hypocrisy is a characteristic that comes from being too proud and/or too ignorant. To figure out how to portray hypocrisy, I think you need to find out if your character is more proud or more ignorant. Prideful hypocrites often know when they are being hypocritical, but they ignore or justify it. For the most part, I think ignorant hypocrites exist in fiction.

If it's pride, you explain why your character is immune to whatever standard they are contradicting. From their point of view, try to make it understood why they don't think something applies to them.

If it's the latter, show your character's thought process and help the reader understand why they don't realize they are being hypocrites.

Narratives are usually the best way to show it since it's mental more than anything, if you want to be brief about it, find a way to suggest the flaw to your reader.

Anyway, you know why your character is a hypocrite. Try to show their personality and maybe share a little bit of why they are being hypocritical in a particular situation. If we can see how hypocrisy fits into their personality, you've done great.

/rant

if somebody can explain it better than my attempt, by all means! This is only my own approach.

I think that's a good start! Another thing to do is realize that most people do not want to be hypocrites, and, in fact, hate being called out on hypocrisy. People often practice the very behaviors that upset them most, but in their minds it is justified. This comes, I think, from knowing their own reasons and rationales for acting as they do; it's easy to condemn someone for something if you can write it off as unreasonable, but when you are doing it it's usually not just on a whim (or even if it is, you have a reason that is okay).

I do not like the narrative pointing out a character's hypocrisy unless the character is aware of it. In fact, I hate it when a character's narrative becomes too omniscient, because, in the context of SOTF, it is almost always either to poke fun at the character/point out their failings (which makes said failings more apparent and thus makes it less believable for the character to be ignorant of them) or to ham-handedly foreshadow future events/oncoming drama in a way that basically boils down to telling the audience what's coming.

Toben raises a really good point, which can be expanded to the broader concern that the general SotF style generally does not put much trust in its reader. We have some very helpful narrative tools available as far as perspective goes, namely that a) we can write in third-person limited and get into our character's mental and emotional processes extensively, and b) we're not literally writing "as them", so we can get a little more omniscient and externally comment on whatever internal processes they got going on. These are nice things! But they very easily become crutches. It is, by and large, a crying shame when a character's narrative tries to hold your hand and explain what's going on and explain how this post should be read. This applies to hypocritical characters specifically: if a character is claiming some stand but speaking/acting contrary to that stand, we should trust our readers to be able to perceive that without pointing out "Here the character is being hypocritical" or taking a detour to explain "This character's hypocrisy can be traced back to these earlier life circumstances" or whatnot. There is room for implicit characterization. There is room for characters thinking and doing ugly things that the narrative never honks a horn at.

I understand the impulse completely, though. Lord knows we've had characters who, far as an impartial observer can tell, follow this narrative pattern: a) Character X does horrible shit, narrative seems to support character, b) Other handlers note in chat, or privately to Handler X, that Character X is doing horrible shit in a way that seems to be being lionized, c) Handler X insists that this was intentional all along, that the narrative was painting a picture of implicit self-deception. Nobody wants to be that handler, nobody wants to try and write something subtle and then come off as a thoughtless writer who backpedals when called out.

But here's the thing: if you've got a great book or a great play or a great film, very often its characters will have multiple interpretations. Nobody gives Shakespeare shit because Hamlet is kinda a douche who alternates between bitter, self-doubting paralysis and transformations into a whirlwind of incompetent death. People might disagree that it's what he is, but there's never the instinct with canonized works to say "Because the author did not explicitly tell us everything that was going on with this guy's character, let's go and assume that he was being thoughtless and dumb about it". Obviously nobody here is Shakespeare. But hell if we shouldn't be aspiring to step up the level of literary discourse going on here. If that includes doing risky things with your characters and refusing to use in-post disclaimers that let the reader know "you're on the level", then that's what it includes.

It's a two-way street. Writers need to trust readers more, trust that they can pick up on implicit characterization and not need a psychoanalysis dump whenever a character does something unpleasant. And readers need to trust writers more, trust that the interesting things going on with a character aren't by accident, that a writer isn't plodding along thoughtlessly just because the writer's thoughts aren't right there in the post.

As a very quick note before I vanish for the next twenty hours, to build on the above the problem with characters doing heinous stuff is often that the narrative will break perspective to point out that they are awesome/in the right. It's not that the character thinks that; of course they (likely) do, since everyone prefers to view themselves as the protagonist. The problem is when the writer is right there in the post cheering the character on, which is again not trusting the reader, in this case not trusting them to pick up on how the nasty torturous person is really just a misunderstood protagonist, honest.

I think you can get away with that if you strictly keep to a third-person limited POV, so that your prose is effectively always colored by the character's perspectives and biases.

But you gotta buy into that from day 1. Don't switch your character's narrative voice partway through the version because that's just weird.

I think there are a lot of ways you can clue people in to how you hope a character is percieved- example:

"I'm not scared," Alice said. "It's just freakin' cold out here." A bead of warm sweat trickled down her collar.

There are a few dots to connect there, but the intent is pretty clear. It's not a particularly subtle example. The big difference, though, is implicit narrative vs explicit narrative - a beast that crops up everywhere you look bearing a thousand different names but known most often as "Show, don't tell." I'll drop a couple more:

Alice plowed the serrated blade into Bob's quivering eye just as Carlos reappeared, calling frantically for his companion. She looked between the bleeding lump of flesh and his former friend. Surely he'd understand.

Alice plowed the serrated blade into Bob's quivering eye just as Carlos reappeared, calling frantically for his companion. She looked between the bleeding lump of flesh and his former friend. Surely he wouldn't be so naiive as to cling to long-useless values like friendship and pacifism. Anyone could see the decision they'd face before the end, and there really was only one choice.

Same scene, same actions, same attitudes, but one makes me want to punch the handler and the other doesn't. The difference is explicit vs implicit.

In the first one, I'm saying that there's a moral choice that Alice has made and that it's so obvious that not only do I expect Carlos to understand, I expect the reader to expect Carlos to understand. If that wasn't true, I'd justify it somehow, but I didn't. In short, Alice's attitude is X and I'm implying that there's no reason not to.

In the second example, I'm adding more detail, laying out more justification, and actually being more open to interpretation by reinforcing the viewpoint. Alice's attitude is still X, but I'm showing that through positions A, B, and C, some or all of which can be debated. I'm even laying down some not-insignificant implication that I personally don't approve of eye-stabbing. "Surely" and "Anyone could see" are blanket statements that reek of rationalization.

So I think the solution to the character/narrative disconnect is simply to provide adequate reasoning for their thoughts or actions. If the reader already knows why Alice is stabbing eyes and thinking it's ok, then they're not going to assume it's because the handler is an avid eye-stabber themself.

Man it's always a shame when someone posts a pair of examples to make the point of "B is better than A" when A is a lot better than B.

I see the points you're trying to make, and I agree wholeheartedly with the show-not-tell you express earlier in the post. But of the two Alice kills, the former does a lot more for me. Perhaps it's because I'm already really invested in the mindset of "trust the writer", but the first kill comes across as incredibly punchy, incredibly dissonant, incredibly Holy shit, what the hell is even wrong with Alice? Just the massive gulf between the action and the expressed sentiment is an excellent piece of pathos, leading the reader towards a desperate process of How? How the hell could he understand? What the hell is even her thought process?

The second is awkward, belabored, getting into cartoon villain monologue territory. Yes, it spells out Alice's motivations a lot more clearly, but in this case the man behind the curtain is a boring little shithead. I know you're just writing something really quick and throwaway to illustrate a broader point rather than putting your all into it, but reading a post that went like that would make me groan. It's absolutely telling rather than showing, telling the reader in these obvious terms that guys, hey, I'm writing a villain here.

And it illustrates another major pitfall of not trusting your reader that I forgot to even mention in my earlier post. It does some serious violence to pacing, breaking up rhythm and ruining concise sentiments. "Surely he'd understand", bam, that's a very effective little climactic beat for a post. "Surely he wouldn't be so naiive as to cling to long-useless values like friendship and pacifism. Anyone could see the decision they'd face before the end, and there really was only one choice", that's some bullshit flow-breaking detour. Don't need it. Don't do it.

EDIT: Little addendum. I feel like part of the reason I recoil against the explanation in the second post is because SotF posts do not exist in a vacuum. They exist in the context of 5 V's plus I guess Mini is a context too but I ain't never read any of that shit??? The point is that there's already a language built up, a series of known archetypes, a bunch of familiar motivations and routes that we don't necessarily condemn but that we also don't need spelled out for us. Morals and friendships and pacifism are pre-apocalypse things, we don't need them anymore, all that's important now is Survival of the Fittest. It's not a new motivation, not a new space that we really need explicated. By all means, keep writing characters like this if you'll have fun doing it and/or if you think you can put an interesting spin on the archetype, but there's absolutely no need to reiterate in details these motivation beats that we're already all familiar with.

You know who was a villain whose internal justifications totally needed to be there? Aaron Hughes. Because he was something essentially new to the island, this warped figure who prays to the concept of the hero in order to access villainous power, getting an insight into his mental gymnastics was always a delight. Whenever he'd pull some villainous act, the "man behind the curtain" was always something interesting, something that you wanted to shout at because no, fuck you, that's not how heroism or logic work. The arguments that Aaron's thoughts presented were always compelling because you wanted to argue back with them. "We gotta kill because morals are over and survival is the best", I don't wanna argue with that, because the argument's played out as fuck by now and never really had the potential to be that compelling of a back and forth in the first place.

Yeah that was like 5 seconds of thought when I normally take 10 minutes per line and I was using eye stabbing as an implicit tipoff that we weren't in the business of grading that like a Russian novel.

I'm with Jonny on this one. I think writing works better if every little detail about a character's thought processes isn't spelled out, partly because it can get repetitive and even come across as patronising after a while, and partly because of the aforementioned concerns about flow.

There is a school of thought, not entirely unrelated to SOTF, that horror stories work at their very best when the monsters are mostly or entirely in the reader's head, rather than described in loving detail on the page. (It's the same reason Bill Watterson never explained what the 'noodle incident' actually was.) There's a lot to be said for trusting your readers to fill in the gaps and work out for themselves what the implications of a phrase like "Surely he'd understand" are for that character, or even leaving the questions unanswered altogether, rather than deciding a character can't be truly scary until all of their internal rationalisations and motivations have been forced down our throats.

Ooh, okay, I can say a lot more here.

I think the answer is not that either one of Rattle's suggested kills is superior, because divorced of context we can't really say. The first example works fine if there are reasons behind Alice's thought pattern, if it's something that has been set up and foreshadowed, in which case it can be massively creepy and effective. The problem is, it also smacks of the sort of half-baked rationalization handlers throw down when they realize they haven't even figured out why their kid is playing in the first place and need to whip something up.

The second is a better from-the-ground-up kill, even if overwrought, because it does lay out more of an explanation. Absent further evidence, it sets up why Alice is doing what she's doing, without resorting to "because she is". It says, "Guys, I'm writing a villain," yes, but that's better than writing a villain while, the entire time, emphatically claiming that you are not (which is one of my biggest pet peeves in SOTF, and way more common than folks seem to realize).

Trusting the reader is very important, but it's a fine line to tread, because throwing in random stuff or derailing characters with fluffy soundbites rather than actual depth isn't trusting the reader either; it is, rather, assuming the reader is not paying much attention or is unable to grasp these problems and then taking advantage of that.

As to the other thing with the examples: Is anyone else worried about poor Casey Malkovich in light of them? She's vanished somewhere, and Alice must have gotten that serrated blade from somewhere...

There is a school of thought, not entirely unrelated to SOTF, that horror stories work at their very best when the monsters are mostly or entirely in the reader's head, rather than described in loving detail on the page. (It's the same reason Bill Watterson never explained what the 'noodle incident' actually was.) There's a lot to be said for trusting your readers to fill in the gaps and work out for themselves what the implications of a phrase like "Surely he'd understand" are for that character, or even leaving the questions unanswered altogether, rather than deciding a character can't be truly scary until all of their internal rationalisations and motivations have been forced down our throats.

If this is intentional, I agree. H.P. Lovecraft talks about this a lot. Thing is, you've gotta be able to pull it off or you're gonna get a hot mess of a disaster. Worse, if you're not being intentional about it, it's just laziness. Unintentional stuff can work out sometimes, but then it's down to luck. It's the difference, for music fans, between The Shaggs and Captain Beefheart; they're superficially kinda alike, but the latter was practiced rigorously for months with a specific intent in mind, while the former was knocked together in a couple hours by three people who didn't actually know how to play their instruments. Beefheart's artistic results are pretty much exactly what he intended, while if there is much merit in the work of The Shaggs, it is almost certainly accidental.

I think you can get away with that if you strictly keep to a third-person limited POV, so that your prose is effectively always colored by the character's perspectives and biases.

But you gotta buy into that from day 1. Don't switch your character's narrative voice partway through the version because that's just weird.

This, I actually don't agree with. A transition can be awkward as all heck, but I'd rather dive off a sinking ship than ride it all the way down. The key is managing a transition consciously and slowly, easing out of old modes and into new ones. I entirely changed the PoV structure on half my V4 cast at about Day Two, and I don't think folks noticed until it got pointed out. It's better, I think, to drop stuff that's not working if at all possible, because otherwise you can end up haunted by the specters of choices you made right at the start of pregame that drag down everything else.

---

On a kinda not totally related tangent, I've been thinking of cooking up a guide to villains in SOTF, a sort of unofficial ramble like the ones I do a few times a year. Is that something anyone'd be interested in? It's what I'm pickiest about, archetype-wise, so I've got a lot to say there.

A villain guide may be too strong a word, but making some communal notes on, "what makes a good villain" might be beneficial.

*Is totally biased because he's writing a villain*

EDIT: Should probably actually contribute, eh?

Basically, on the topic previously discussed, I feel like it may also depend on the character. If they're more introspective, it might make more sense for them to discuss their motives internally, while if they aren't, they may be more vague or implied. It depends on a lot of things, really, and I admit to being a user of, "spelling things out" just because I worry about getting my point across, but I hope to do less beating-over-the-head and more nuanced and in-character thinking and stuff.

Made one.

If I could add something as a side note to the guys on here:

Please keep track of your bullets. If you're lucky enough to be assigned a gun, please make sure you as a handler know exactly how many bullets it can contain and how many you've fired. I'm one of the OCD types that starts calculating how many shots have been fired and bullets have been spent per each character. Perhaps it's not necessarily so important, but for me personally, having an infinite amount of fire power detracts from a character and makes them immortal.

Also, on the topic of guns and immortality, keep in mind stuff like recoil, firing rate, and the occasional description of the cool steel, or the weight of the gun. Little things like that add to the realism and immerse the reader into the shooter a bit more.

I'm not mentioning this in particular regards to anybody, but it's just something I'd keep in mind. Love how everyone's writing so far~

^ Can't agree more!

But I thought my shotgun could hold like 500 shells per cartridge >.>

In all seriousness infinite ammo is dumb, but so is v4s "everyone is a sharpshooter" response to "here is how much ammo each gun starts with."

Shooting a gun is hard. Seriously, seriously hard. If you don't know which eye dominance you are, you have a pretty solid chance of not being able to aim outright (I am left eye dominant despite being right-hand dominant, and it makes shooting a bitch because it feels strange to hold a weapon lefty). Most characters won't even be aware that this is a possibility). How many kids know how to hold a shotgun and aim without it knocking them over when they fire? How many kids know how to aim a handgun? I only know any of this shit because an ex-marine buddy of mine who is a gun enthusiast took me skeet shooting. I hit 0 birds.

These are high school students who largely have zero shooting experience. Most gunshots should be pretty far off unless they are shot from, like, point blank range.

I imagine high school students shouldn't do much better

I am left eye dominant despite being right-eye dominant

Little mistake here, I think XD

But yeah, that's a thing. I know because I do that during the few times I golf,(which is a bitch because I don't wanna buy left handed clubs, so I have to learn to adapt to the other way), and sometimes baseball.

Here's a wiki page about it and things related to it.

Anyway, everyone seems to be keeping the realism of guns in check, so far. Very little unreasonableness, which is good.

Edit: Dammit Ninja'd. I think most people would do better then that guy. Or at least hold it better.

[Grand Moff Hissa]

[+] The General SOTF Discussion Thread Part Twelve

Considering we have removed, explicitly, ammunition amounts from the rules, I can't say I really agree with the previous sentiments. Bullets per magazine is acceptable, but keeping track of the quantity overall is unnecessary and definitely not something that requires the PSA type tone being put across.

Well, then I would think the number of magazines should be specified, to be helpful. I assumed every kid assigned a gun only got one magazine, but there's a good chance I'm wrong.

Agreed on bullets per magazine, though yeah, we allow fuzziness on the rest because of what happened in V4 (everyone was a crack shot!). Basically, giving an overall number of bullets adds tons of micromanaging.

As to shooting, I've seen someone knocked over by a shotgun. It was pretty amusing. But yeah, a thing the kids have going for them is the instruction manuals, if they actually read and then take some time to implement what they've learned. Of course, in a panic, that might well not happen, so I think the chance of hideous screw ups increases as the pressure of a situation does.

Well, then I would think the number of magazines should be specified, to be helpful. I assumed every kid assigned a gun only got one magazine, but there's a good chance I'm wrong.

It's your call. The reason we don't specify anymore is it adds a boatload of work for both staff and handlers, and this is an area where it's down to choice a lot. Would you rather deal with reloading magazines a lot, or not so much?

(For reference, in V4 it was mixed; some kids got just loaded magazines and some got bundles of loose bullets. Handlers, not quite grokking the terminology, by and large ignored the distinction there, another reason it was ditched.)

Yo important question that shows like my top priorities re: SotF

1) 9/11 happened in this universe, right?
2) Is Bin Laden dead?
3) Did Bin Laden get killed in the same way, at the same time, as the result of the same policies, except those were policies of President I Don't Remember His Name instead of President Obama?

1) I know in the really early days there were implications/mentions that 9/11 and the War on Terror (aka, let's kill all the brown people and steal their stuff!) still happened, such as Kaishi stating the AT weren't Middle Eastern and had nothing to do with 9/11, and a memory thread in v3 actually concerns the Iraq War, but I don't know if that still stands since a lot has changed since then.

2) Similar to above, he did still exist in this universe last I knew, but I don't know if staff's changed it.

3) Politically, the equivalent to the killing of Bin Laden seems to've been Danya's death and the rescue of the v4 kids.

Yo important question that shows like my top priorities re: SotF

1) 9/11 happened in this universe, right?
2) Is Bin Laden dead?
3) Did Bin Laden get killed in the same way, at the same time, as the result of the same policies, except those were policies of President I Don't Remember His Name instead of President Obama?

Yep! All that stuff happened. We briefly addressed it here. In general, SOTF follows the real-world timeline except as relates to the game, as a narrative convenience to help keep handlers on the same page.[/url]

The guy tried to fire a rifle like a pistol. The fuck?????

But yeah, reading the instruction manual gets you a decent amount of the way there. At least it tells you shit like "you fire a shotgun with it braced into your shoulder," so someone who shoots it wouldn't shoot from the hip (shotguns are surprisingly manageable to fire if you shoot them in the correct stance. Lean back while you're firing, though...)

And yeah, fixed the error in my post. Thanks for pointing that out, Perse. For curiosity's sake, I wonder what dominances people have here. I'm:

Left eye.
Right ear.
Right hand.
Right leg.

Also, I think we're underselling the kids a little, in that people in this thread are assuming they're all so colossally stupid as to try to fire a rifle like a pistol. Plus, assuming any weapon fired is instantly going to go flying across the room is just as unrealistic as perfect lack of recoil.

(I still think "everything happened as in the real world, except with SOTF jammed in" is a waste of an alternate world and not to mention really boring. It makes the game look kinda shoehorned.)

(I still think "everything happened as in the real world, except with SOTF jammed in" is a waste of an alternate world and not to mention really boring. It makes the game look kinda shoehorned.)

Y'see I always thought that SOTF would have been more interesting if the games themselves made a big enough impact to change history? Events occur differently, social climate takes a nose dive (people begin to suspect/grow more suspicious of high schoolers, parents becoming overly protective (maybe even some training their kids, government using SOTF to further political goals), things like that.

Then again, the Minis are a pretty good avenue to play in alternative universes, and I'm certain all of the points I've just mentioned have been touched in games like TV or The Program. What we have now is fine. It works, and it avoids having to go around and editing posts when someone contradicts the changes made in the Main Universe.

As an aside, I'm pretty sure a little suspension of disbelief is required for SOTF as far as guns go. Most of us will roll our eyes whenever a character becomes Rick Grimes, headshots everywhere. However, as long as you make the effort to keep things grounded in reality and not have your 90-pound wallflower handling machine guns like Rambo, it'll be okay. You can get away with not mentioning how many bullets you have yet, or having your inexperienced gun-wielding character getting a direct hit(in moderation, chill out Grimes).

Besides, it wouldn't be entertaining if two kids in the middle of a gun fight can't manage to hit each other because the recoil of their gun just send them flying through the air? Okay actually that would be really hilarious.

Lemme get Real Ciel with you... Please, don't do have your character do this, or I will glower at you from across the internet. Who you think you are, Benny Hill? Sheeeeeeeet.

Please keep track of your bullets. If you're lucky enough to be assigned a gun, please make sure you as a handler know exactly how many bullets it can contain and how many you've fired...

In all seriousness infinite ammo is dumb, but so is v4s "everyone is a sharpshooter" response to "here is how much ammo each gun starts with."

Actually, history lesson, the mods had a legit reason to track bullets in v4. V3 had the Kazuo Kiriyama Syndrome where guns were like sprays, bullets flying everywhere. I should know... I was one of the main offenders...

And... you can probably that that kind of breaks realism over it's knee? That might be putting it mildly. It cuts through it like a katana sword through melted butter.

There were probably other reasons but I am fairly certain it was to keep people from abusing bullets. The community has approved in so many ways since then though so there's no presidence to keep count. Most members understand not to abuse guns, so it might seem really stupid and a waste of time. And it is.

Otherwise, I do agree with Shangela. There's nothing wrong with researching your weapon, adding a few juicy tidbits just for the sake of immersing your audience. .

Golly you kids today, with your realistic characters and depth, git off my lawn.

As to universe stuff: Yeah, it's basically a case where there's a good amount of cool stuff that could be worked with, but doing so would raise the entry bar considerably for new handlers and/or result in constant continuity snarls as it all unfolded (and inevitably ran ignored at times). On Mini, on the other hand, we can have a long-established alternate universe, so all the super pertinent information is there at the start.

It's basically a compromise to allow handlers to pop into Main without knowing the entire history of the game and universe and stuff. If you know Riz won V3, you're basically good to roll.

As to the community: Yeah, there is that, too. Also, now that we care more about realism with stuff like aiming, a gun is harder to break the game with (since, "But he missed" is usually pretty valid unless they got real close first).

Otherwise, I do agree with Shangela. There's nothing wrong with researching your weapon, adding a few juicy tidbits just for the sake of immersing your audience. .

One of my favorite details was when Mason Ross, over in SOTF-TV, set his pistol to burst fire. I had no clue there were pistols that could do that, but 'foxd did the research and spun it into a cool line and it was really memorable.

And I knew that detail from a video game ....XD

Out of curiosity, I was wondering how you guys with multiple characters keep them sounding distinct from each other? Lately, I've been a bit frustrated, as I think I'm writing one of my characters too much like the other. (Specifically, Chase sounds a little more like Ian than I think he should) Are there any good ways to deal with that kind of a problem, when the characters in question aren't completely different from each other?

I try to give each a few unique patterns of speech, often based on their interests or time growing up. At its most basic, some of my kids curse and others don't, and those who do have different favorite expressions while those who don't use different forms of substitution. Vocabulary is a good one, too; whoever's a little less keen on their education probably gets less big words or complicated sentences.

And, at the end of the day, they sometimes still sound similar. I find adding a bit of emphasis to distinguishing features can help, though (for example, Chase is into art, while Ian is not so much, which gives Chase a different set of things that can give his situation context. He might be more aware of, say, visual stuff, lighting and so forth, whereas with his martial arts training, Ian would likely be more aware of situational stuff regarding people and positioning. While these aren't exactly voice, where the focus of a narrative lingers does form a part of voice and can help distinguish people. I'm only using your kids for my example 'cause a. I'm in threads with both of 'em so I'm familiar with 'em and b. I'm too tired to dig up appropriate stuff with my kids. Not trying to tell you how to write your characters! ).

Yeah, and I'd also like to jump in and say vocabulary extends to the narrative as well, not just the speech of the character. I have two characters of very different levels of IQ, and so I prefer to pepper the smarter character with larger words and more abstract references in thought pattern, rather than strictly spoken word.

I'm a little late here, but a note on shotguns/rifles: I'm five feet tall and a bit underweight, and while I can shoot skeet without falling over, the kick will leave some nasty bruises if I'm not wearing a padded vest. It's pretty distracting and can take you by surprise and mess up your shot, and I'd imagine it's about the same even if someone has an advantage in size, especially if they've never fired a gun before.

Ah, I see. Thanks for the pointers, guys! So far, it's been quite helpful place to start at least. Oh, and no problem using my characters for examples or suggestions, Murder; after all, they're the ones I'm trying to figure out right now.

Just a little recommendation, from experience, based on a trend I'm observing gaining momentum today:

Oneshots, by and large, should be avoided unless there's a really specific reason to make a oneshot instead of just starting a thread with whatever is going on. This is because, by and large, they are the threads most likely to get skipped, ignored, or forgotten, so you don't want the key to your character's development to be something nobody bothers with. Also, handled improperly, they can be really arduous reads or pointless. The former comes when oneshots are really long but do not justify that length, and the latter comes when they're super short.

Personally, if it's under 1000 words, I rarely see the need for a oneshot. It just doesn't add anything material that can't go into the next thread.

Although as a counterpoint to Murder's words (and to some extent an elaboration), a oneshot is excellent for establishing a character's purely internal conflicts that don't necessarily need external resolution. A lot of the fun in SotF is to be had with bringing your character's issues into conflict with the personalities of other characters with their own agendas, but sometimes what needs to be written next is purely about your character, not about any interaction, and when that time comes even a short oneshot might be the way to go. Again, though, these should definitely be the exception and not the rule.

Also (and I think this maybe got lost in my last point), those can often be used as intro posts to actual threads. That's what I'd do in V4, mostly, because that way it tricked people into reading them. ><

A oneshot is for when something absolutely must stand alone. And sometimes that's the case, but less often than folks seem to think.

Also (and I think this maybe got lost in my last point), those can often be used as intro posts to actual threads. That's what I'd do in V4, mostly, because that way it tricked people into reading them. ><

I seem to always agree with you MurderWeasel. This is pretty much the same reason I put new posts into the intro post rather than one shots, unless it's necessary or wouldn't make sense any other way. One Shots get ignored pretty often, sadly. I don't mind when people make oneshots, I always read it, but it's just something I've noticed too.

One-shots should be used responsibly. Murder is right by saying that they should stand alone. One-shots aren't like locked threads; while you still get some semblance of control, you need to justify why you're writing it. They need a driving force, and they need to be self-contained (implied by the name, I suppose.)

A big pet peeve of mine is when a character leaves one one-shot thread... just to enter another one-shot thread. It's happened before. And it irks the heck out of me.

Yeah, that makes sense. I could understand the potential need for that, I guess, but only in extremely specific circumstances. Maybe something like, "Revelation about self following accidentally killing someone" right into "discovery of your friend's cooling corpse." But again, should be exceedingly rare.

Personally, I use one-shots to justify my characters showing up on the other side of the island in their next thread.

^ Oh, I sorta do that too (not necessarily with one-shots only). I "travel" the island between locations one post at a time through different threads sometimes, if people are familiar with some of my past stuff in the mini site or in pregame, you'll know what I mean. I know some people don't like it when people do that, but it's fun for me.

Personally, I use one-shots to justify my characters showing up on the other side of the island in their next thread.

That helps, too. I personally favour oneshots that help illustrate the passage of time better. Most threads take place over the course of a few minutes, some last the astonishing length of an hour or two, but almost none take up a major part of a day. In some cases, a character might spend 90% of their time on the island effectively doing nothing, which I view as kind of a waste.

Although other people might dislike oneshots, I enjoy them because it gives a handler a chance to write a character without his actions being influenced by others, which gives them a much better opportunity to grant insight into their thought process when 'at rest' instead of always being in the middle of a crisis, which can be rather limiting in terms of context.

That said, I dislike oneshot threads that are essentially retreads of other, potentially better oneshot threads. Having character X muse about killing character Y in a oneshot has been done so many times it isn't even funny. For a oneshot to be worth reading it needs to present me with something that I can't get from reading a normal thread.

I like oneshots, personally (as you can tell by the fact that I've done like 5 already), but I do see why people think they can be lame. Personally, I try and have my oneshots be eventful in some way or other, and in particular try and make all of them matter. Content-less oneshots are a bit pointless, but yeah, I can see why people don't like them if they're used improperly.

I find even travel can be summarized at the start of the next thread, often in a better fashion if nothing big has happened. I've seen good examples of that in V5 so far (like this). I've also seen some really good examples of non-oneshot oneshots (like this, though nobody has joined yet).

What, to me, justifies a oneshot is if it is something that has a far bit of drama behind it, such that it'd take away from another scene in the same thread (for example, Dodd discovering his best friend's corpse) or when it's actually really long enough and navel-gazey enough to make it not very friendly for others to join (like, if you're over 2500-3000 words or so, you certainly can put it into a thread, and I have before, but at that point there's a pretty good flow reason to avoid it in many cases). Oh, also, oneshots are not great but for sure forgivable in situations where a thread is open and nobody joins and then you have to move out and just edit rather than posting again.

But yeah, a lot of the oneshots thus far haven't been bad scenes; they just haven't really felt like scenes that need to be put aside on their own. To me, a oneshot carries two connotations: the first is a truly important chapter in a character's story. The second is padding, either of thread count or activity as you try to avoid the deadline. ><

I find even travel can be summarized at the start of the next thread, often in a better fashion if nothing big has happened. I've seen good examples of that in V5 so far (like this). I've also seen some really good examples of non-oneshot oneshots (like this, though nobody has joined yet).

What, to me, justifies a oneshot is if it is something that has a far bit of drama behind it, such that it'd take away from another scene in the same thread (for example, Dodd discovering his best friend's corpse) or when it's actually really long enough and navel-gazey enough to make it not very friendly for others to join (like, if you're over 2500-3000 words or so, you certainly can put it into a thread, and I have before, but at that point there's a pretty good flow reason to avoid it in many cases). Oh, also, oneshots are not great but for sure forgivable in situations where a thread is open and nobody joins and then you have to move out and just edit rather than posting again.

But yeah, a lot of the oneshots thus far haven't been bad scenes; they just haven't really felt like scenes that need to be put aside on their own. To me, a oneshot carries two connotations: the first is a truly important chapter in a character's story. The second is padding, either of thread count or activity as you try to avoid the deadline. ><

Why do I always feel the need to post "This!" with your posts, MW. Probably just so I don't simply echo your thoughts. >_>

The part where I highlighted is the other issue with numerous one-shots when reading through them. Those simply can be in the intro post of a thread if it's not a significant type of scene. I try to do that in my intro-posts using the [ hr ] tag to divide it up in sections to show movement or time passing rather than moving between new threads sometimes.

A good example of a oneshot thread recently that justifies itself as a one-shot cause of a certain drama involved with the character doing something that probably is a little more personal is ==> This One, in my opinion. She's mourning, feeling regret, and then pretty much giving a proper send off and make-shift funeral for one of the victims who she met early on. It's that little bit of 'extra' that makes it worth it. Sometimes actual actions are a big part of it, rather than just introspection/reflection.


Also, I fully admit knowing that summarizing travel is best for writing/story, but I do it sometimes anyway because it's fun for me to 'travel the map' like a game map and that's all that matters - fun. (Though, I recall overdoing at times in TV)

Hey, guys. I'm going to toss a few counterpoints in here to keep the discussion going, rather than turning it into somewhat of a “oh man, I hate that too!” sort of discussion.

Firstly, I want to agree with this:

Although other people might dislike oneshots, I enjoy them because it gives a handler a chance to write a character without his actions being influenced by others, which gives them a much better opportunity to grant insight into their thought process when 'at rest' instead of always being in the middle of a crisis, which can be rather limiting in terms of context.

I can get behind this logic because it's very true. I veiw oneshots as a mouthpiece to say something about a character or have a sort of recoup from a particularly intense scene or action that has changed the way a character views the game so far. At the end of the day, we're each crafting a story, and all of our characters have voices that need and deserve to be written. So, having a oneshot able to stand on its own and give a reader a direct look into a mindset of a character before he leaps back into the fray is definitely beneficial to long stretching plotlines.

Now, onto my disagreements.

This is because, by and large, they are the threads most likely to get skipped, ignored, or forgotten, so you don't want the key to your character's development to be something nobody bothers with.

While I agree with this (and feel that this is the only unarguable valid point to avoiding oneshots at all brought up so far) it also asks you the question; who are you writing for? If you're writing a story that hinges on being an easy read, then obviously you don't want to burden a reader with tons of oneshots that don't result in characterisation. But if you're writing for you and your character in order to tell a story logically, then oneshots are a necessary thing to utilize, and I don't feel like someone should feel apprehension or indecisiveness in regard to wondering if their oneshot is 'relevant' enough to post as a common thought. As a general rule, if your character has an action or a series of revelations that feel out of place in a thread, and it's a necessity to your development? Post the shit out of it in a oneshot.

Also, handled improperly, they can be really arduous reads or pointless. The former comes when oneshots are really long but do not justify that length, and the latter comes when they're super short.

Yes, but that's the same as regular posts, too, and I don't feel as though we should separate them out like that. If any post you make feels arduous and pointless, you should probably rethink the way you're approaching the content to your post. Oneshots, while definitely enhancing the effects of a 'bad' post because of length, are not the only times you should be considering if your post is pointless or not.

Personally, if it's under 1000 words, I rarely see the need for a oneshot. It just doesn't add anything material that can't go into the next thread.

You're leaning a bit on length here, MW. And you know I've got mad love for you. But if there's a situation that a character encounters that needs time to breathe and seperate from a chaotic spin, and that situation, when written, is 700 words? I feel that a oneshot is good for pacing. Trying to ram a bunch of content into a front-heavy entry post is every bit as cumbersome and annoying to work around for fellow Rpers as a too small oneshot.

That said, I dislike oneshot threads that are essentially retreads of other, potentially better oneshot threads. Having character X muse about killing character Y in a oneshot has been done so many times it isn't even funny. For a oneshot to be worth reading it needs to present me with something that I can't get from reading a normal thread.

I agree and disagree in alternating points, here. Firstly, a character is going to react to killing a kid. I view that the same way as I did the introduction posts. Most complaints during that time were complaints about some posts feeling the same as others – wake up, freak out, find weapon – but I took the stance that they were pretty good reactions to something monumental happening. If I woke up drugged on an island after seeing a dude shot in the face, damn right I'd freak out (after waking up) and checking out my gear.

It's one of those things that is inevitable in a game like SotF. You should always try to bring new and fresh stuff to the table, and you should always try to be true to your character and characterisation. If you need to sacrifice new content for the latter, then I say dive in.

Content-less oneshots are a bit pointless, but yeah, I can see why people don't like them if they're used improperly.

Again, this is just how I view posts in general If you've posted something content-less, yeah, you really should re-evaluate your approach to what you wish to say, oneshot or no.

The second is padding, either of thread count or activity as you try to avoid the deadline. ><

Ugh. Yeah, those are two reasons Oneshots should never be used. Ever.

Anyway, these are just my points. I like reading this discussion so far, so I'm doing my part to keep 'er going.

But if you're writing for you and your character in order to tell a story logically, then oneshots are a necessary thing to utilize, and I don't feel like someone should feel apprehension or indecisiveness in regard to wondering if their oneshot is 'relevant' enough to post as a common thought.

Necessary is a sticky word. Oneshots are no more necessary than kills, and the idea that leads to that conclusion is kind of a false dichotomy. The rest of your point, though, I agree with:

What, to me, justifies a oneshot is if it is something that has a far bit of drama behind it, such that it'd take away from another scene in the same thread (for example, Dodd discovering his best friend's corpse) or when it's actually really long enough and navel-gazey enough to make it not very friendly for others to join (like, if you're over 2500-3000 words or so, you certainly can put it into a thread, and I have before, but at that point there's a pretty good flow reason to avoid it in many cases).

As to writing for you vs. writing for someone else: that's cool. That said, if you're writing a super long, in-depth oneshot for you, you really need to understand that nobody will read it. This is from long, long experience (I say, as the handler who wrote the least-read thread in V4, which was a super important oneshot that redefined a character ><).

Yes, but that's the same as regular posts, too, and I don't feel as though we should separate them out like that. If any post you make feels arduous and pointless, you should probably rethink the way you're approaching the content to your post. Oneshots, while definitely enhancing the effects of a 'bad' post because of length, are not the only times you should be considering if your post is pointless or not.

The problem is, oneshots have a much higher tendency to be useless because there's nobody else to drag utility out of them kicking and screaming. In other threads, by very virtue of interaction something will happen or change (there's a big exception I'll rant about some other time; long story short we don't need three pages of "Wanna go?" "Sure!" "Now?" "If you're cool with it." "I'm cool with it." "Okay." "Sounds good." "Then we go." "Yes we go." "Yes but you don't go!")

You're leaning a bit on length here, MW. And you know I've got mad love for you. But if there's a situation that a character encounters that needs time to breathe and seperate from a chaotic spin, and that situation, when written, is 700 words? I feel that a oneshot is good for pacing. Trying to ram a bunch of content into a front-heavy entry post is every bit as cumbersome and annoying to work around for fellow Rpers as a too small oneshot.

It can be, but look at it like a book: if a novel's chapter starts with a brief aside, it's either in italics or separated by

---

a section break. Neither is arduous and they help keep thread pollution down without really hitting a new scene hard. It's navigating with grace, that's all.

It's one of those things that is inevitable in a game like SotF. You should always try to bring new and fresh stuff to the table, and you should always try to be true to your character and characterisation. If you need to sacrifice new content for the latter, then I say dive in.

This cannot be repeated often enough. Novelty falls secondary or tertiary, behind character integrity and and writing something good.

Another reason I hate many oneshots is handlers are terrible at linking their threads, and slapdash oneshot tend to be where the chain breaks hardest, which can make following kids extra annoying.

Edit: I did something and the post I wrote here got messed up and deleted, crud. IPad technical difficulties. Don't try to post from one.

Basically I was talking about how sometimes quiet scenes can be difficult to do well, but if the handlers have the talent to make simple quiet scenes of conversation work, they can turn out to be some of the most interesting to read, for me at least.

I'd give a shout out to a few threads, including the one Mimi and Naft are in right now, at least the first half where they had a believable and realistic conversation that I could actually picture happening. Wish I had the talent for quiet scenes, since I'm more of the action scene type. :<

---

If you haven't already, start reading Summer Simms' story guys. If you can - start from pregame. It's fascinating stuff, imo.

If you haven't already, start reading Summer Simms' story guys. If you can - start from pregame. It's fascinating stuff, imo.

I want to put an exclamation point here. For me, Summer's always had one of the more interesting starts on-island, to say nothing of her pregame showing.

Also, regarding the quiet drama scene - thanks for the kind words. I feel like it's really fundamentally important in a story like SotF's, where murder and death run rampant, to stop and take a breather with your characters. A shout-out I'd put here where handlers do this in a single thread is Stagecoach, and other vehicles, where Grim Wolf and Delroy added a punctuation mark on the action-filled scene up to that point by slowing everything down, having a few talking points, before it ramped right back up again. This was the most intriguing part of the thread for me, so I can say that you're definitely not alone, Psych!

So, getting off of the current topic, I wanted to ask a few questions of all the veterans around here.

Do you think, so far, that V5 is an improvement upon V4 in both the writing quality and just in general?

If yes, how so? What has V5 improved on?

Finally, what patterns have you noticed so far in V5 that are problematic (such as V4's private threads or WACKY formatting)?

I'm really interested in hearing people's thoughts and hopefully this will promote some interesting discussion.

Do you think, so far, that V5 is an improvement upon V4 in both the writing quality and just in general?

If yes, how so? What has V5 improved on?

Finally, what patterns have you noticed so far in V5 that are problematic (such as V4's private threads or WACKY formatting)?

Not a veteran, but I wanna take a guess at their answer:

TOO EARLY.

But I'm expecting and hoping it too. And private threads aren't necessarily problematic, to me.

Obviously a vet should correct me if I'm wrong here, but I got the sense that the problem wasn't "oh look someone used a private thread," it was that you had characters whose entire story was told in private threads, so the character would interact with only a few other characters in a very artificially constructed way.

Not a veteran, but I wanna take a guess at their answer:

TOO EARLY.

Nailed it, Un. At least, to my thinking, they're incomparable since v5 has only just begun and hindsight is always 20/20. If we start pointing out where things are "better" or "worse" at this phase of the game (which is incredibly subjective), we run the risk of influencing the growth and development of v5.

Obviously a vet should correct me if I'm wrong here, but I got the sense that the problem wasn't "oh look someone used a private thread," it was that you had characters whose entire story was told in private threads, so the character would interact with only a few other characters in a very artificially constructed way.

Yeah, this is generally right. I have a strong distaste for scenes that feel scripted, but, well, those can happen in public threads too (and can be easily avoided in private ones).

I tend to agree that it's early to make calls, though I wouldn't say influencing the game's development is a bad thing if it's for the better (to be completely upfront, my lengthy rants I post are very much aimed at influencing things, or at the very least letting people know what I find problematic).

There are, however, two things I think I can say for sure V5 has done better:

1. Grammar: I don't know how or why precisely, but the overall literacy of posts has increased dramatically since V4, or even V5 pregame. Nowadays, it's rare a post stops me cold because the spelling is wrong or a word has been misused or whatever. I mean, there are tons of typos everywhere still, but I feel like, on the whole, handlers are actually proofreading and that's a really nice change from V4 where most people seemed to be slapping posts out without taking much if any time to edit.

2. Fodder: We've had some characters tossed early, of course, but in V4 it felt like two thirds of the game couldn't wait to kill half their characters. The first like five or six rolls tended to be full of stuff few people cared about, because by and large handlers were killing their least interesting characters and were tripping over each other to get rid of them. This meant that most of the emotional impact of early game was in the form of reactions, rather than events, and here there's of course a bit of that still but I feel like handlers are generally more invested in their kids.

Oh, one more thing: a smaller game means we can have smaller rolls which means each death can have some more spotlight time. That's nice.

Of course, V5 has some issues, which I won't go into at length right now. A lot of them are from V4, though (the dreaded "It's too dangerous to stay in this fortified location! We will be much safer wandering randomly in the woods!" has reared its ugly head a time or two; as a tip, if you've gotta change threads but it makes no sense for your kids to leave the area, just timeskip and make a new thread in the same location. It's totally allowed, and you can be sneaky and have the last one out prewrite the opening post for the new thread so they go up in rapid succession, preventing anyone from stealing the area).

I'll have more sometime when it's not 2 am.

The island was abandoned in the nineties, right? I remember it being said somewhere but can't find it.

And does staff know why it was abandoned to begin with? Pure curiosity there.

Well while I haven't read a lot of V5 yet (Only really reading the threads people talk about and the characters that have already died atm, kind of came in part way sorry guys) I will say that from what I've read in V4 as an outsider it's pretty damn good. Sure many of the fodder characters are either underdeveloped or poorly written (Examples of which being Alicia Murazek and Remi Pierce respectively, no offense) but at this point V4 has done nothing to make me think badly of it. It's got great events, great characters, great writing and a very satisfying winner.

HOWEVER I will say from my experience with RPing I've come to learn that when you RP with someone better than yourself it tends to make your writing better as long as you don't think you're "The greatest writer of all time" and given the level of quality that V4 had I'm more than willing to bet that V5 will be even better, at least in one area. Thankfully however it seems as though V5 has also been better in other areas as well so that's good XD

Late 1990's/early 2000's, yeah. That's been mostly just been disseminated by word of mouth but there was a note to that effect under the first announcement.

Fedoras are a popular thing this version.

Was V4 worse? V4 was bad on that front too.

I maintain most kids are probably wearing trilbies and being ignorant, though. If you don't know the difference between a fedora and a trilby, you're almost certainly wearing a trilby.

Spoken like a true Fedora man.

Was V4 worse? V4 was bad on that front too.

I maintain most kids are probably wearing trilbies and being ignorant, though. If you don't know the difference between a fedora and a trilby, you're almost certainly wearing a trilby.

Or you just don't watch much Zero Punctuation.

Was V4 worse? V4 was bad on that front too.

I maintain most kids are probably wearing trilbies and being ignorant, though. If you don't know the difference between a fedora and a trilby, you're almost certainly wearing a trilby.

Well given how similar they look I wouldn't doubt it. I mean hell most of the time I forget they're different hats to, so it wouldn't I could believe that a bunch of teens would of done the same.

Trilby hats tend to have thinner brims and higher peaks, so they’re pretty easy to tell apart from a proper fedora, so long as you’re aware of the distinction in the first place.

Either one would get a real high schooler shoved in a locker.

Either one would get a real high schooler shoved in a locker.

Most definitely. Both tend to be a nerd's idea of being ~suave~ and are generally poor fashion choices unless you're wearing a suit to match.

Hats are fun. I'd like to see a character with a nice, big floppy sunhat or something equally unsuitable. Or an Indiana Jones hat.

It takes a certain kind of person to pull off a trilby/fedora. Some just can. Some just can't.

I've found that if you want to wear a Greek fisherman's cap, you need to have a beard of some kind or it just doesn't look all that good.

I honestly do not recall anyone I went to high school with wearing hats ever other than my one friend who had an afro and wore a hat to cover it for a while. All of us (his friends) would try to steal his hat all the time, and he'd get really pissed off about it.

People at my school tended to wear hats a lot. Most of them were baseball caps, but this school also had the Giordano brothers, Luca and Mario. They were the kind of guys who would make duct tape tuxedos and wear them to prom.

That's what they did.

I'm going to have a character in v6 that is perpetually wearing a sombrero. Probably will also be a cheerleader. I seem to like writing those.

I think v6 needs characters with heterochromia to compensate for the lack of them in v5.

Trilbies were super in style among a certain group about four years ago (they're dying off now). Tons of people wore them at my school. They all called them fedoras.

Also, people tend to be a bit ignorant of the fashion applications of the fedora. What immediately comes to mind is this whole internet stereotype that I'm not gonna get into at length, but the hat actually has a really wide range of applications if you step outside of the typical color scheme. One of the most famous fedoras of all times is Indiana Jones' hat, and they turn up a good amount in brown/khaki with people who have to do stuff out in the sun. They're good if you want a hat that's not obviously a cowboy hat or a baseball cap.

I actually have a boatload of hats, but I never wear them. It's one of those situations where I thought I'd find something I liked, and then remembered that I really did not dig having stuff on my head.

Anyways, as to character appearances, a key thing to remember is that your character's sense of fashion will likely depend, to at least some degree, on their upbringing and social group. While actual, nasty bullying is not something that a lot of schools tolerate much of, there's a lot of ostracization/social status stuff that can vary depending on how you dress. Also, if your kid is fashion-conscious, either do some fashion research or ask someone else for help, or you get really weird combos.

On a side note, I actually HAD to wear a fedora/trilby (didn't know the difference at the time, can't remember where the hat is) at school once, because we had a Brazilian Drumming band and the teacher got us to put on those hats and suspenders, as well as long-sleeved white shirts and black pants. My hat didn't fit on my head properly so I had to just... sit it on top. (It was essentially also cardboard.) ...I have a huge head.

This has been a long digression, we will now return to our scheduled programming.

Do private threads count towards the limit for an area? I ask because I'm seeing them taking up the active slot in several locations at the moment, most notably ones that I wanted to move my character next. Since I don't want to write a second one-shot in a row, I thought I'd ask about this.

Another thing along those lines; is it really necessary for a thread limit to be used for all areas? There are places such as the gated community which are big enough and spacious enough to accommodate multiple active threads at once without contradicting one another. Some threads even take place within a very limited area, such as one building in an entire subregion, locking out the rest of the area to everyone. I'm just not entirely sure I understand the logic behind this rule.

Private threads do count.

The limit has to do with the unfortunate realities learned in V4, namely, that handlers just will not reliably read threads before hopping into an area and will often contradict other stuff in doing so. Having thread limits vary by area was awkward and imprecise, and causes some really big late-game mathematical problems when determining Danger Zone distribution (this is in large part why the final 30 or so of V4 had a nearly 1:1 thread:character ratio. We made sure there was a large enough number of areas to easily accommodate all students so as to deal with this, and personally I hope that private threads can be quick and limited in number so as not to be too disruptive.

I will make a character in V6 who wears a trilby and calls it a fedora. I know way too many people who wear those hats unironically.

These rolls are for day 2 still, yes?

Of course they are.

If they weren't, they would be a neat announcement too.

Yep! There are typically two sets of rolls per in-game day, with the first day as an exception.

Sounds like Nuggets just read the same thread I did. I was just about to ask about it too. As far as I can tell, none of the characters in it have timeskipped.

Yeah, there will be time discrepancies. Always. By this time in V4, it was actually already way worse. We had at least two BKAs a day behind, maybe two IC (hence in part the rules changes).

In practice, the time is handwaved a little and/or it's assumed kids took a bit to die or the terrorists just announced it late for their mysterious reasons.

Aww, bummer.

Actually, there's only one real reason I'm slightly annoyed about that, which is - you guessed it - the vagaries of my graph. "Decathect" has just now taken the honour - from "Where on the island is Carmen Sandiego?", fact fans! - of being the thread in Day 1 to extend furthest to the right. If it's retconned into Day 2, I won't have to move my nice neat(ish) announcement line!

Pretty sure it takes place like midnight day two, you ninnies.

Yeah, we can just say it went from night of Day 1 to morning of Day 2. Maybe Mike died at like 12:00:01 AM.

I generally avoid this thread.

But I heard there were time complaints.


Yes, Decathect takes place past midnight, making it Day 2.

In other news, how do you guys pick threads to join?

I just find a thread that looks interesting. Usually that means I find threads that I could honestly see my character getting involved in while staying in-character. Or, like, if there's a character that I like/have planned with during pregame, that works too.

I tend to look for anything that might be potentially interesting to stick my character into without fucking up what the other handlers got going on. I also tend to go for places that my character could have plausibly walked to within any timeframes, if there's a choice, just so they're not teleporting too much. <.< >.> And sometimes if nothing's really happening in a thread/place yet I might pick it partly so something happens and maybe also because it's a good location. (I did in one case pick a thread almost solely because it was in front of a rollercoaster.)

Quick question: Non-handlers are allowed to post in the 'Notable Changes' threads, right? Wondering if I could make myself useful.

Here's a question: does anyone else have trouble sometimes figuring out which of their kids is working best/has the most potential? I mean, the answer is obviously yes (or, worse, people are certain the wrong way; handlers ditching their best characters early has been a problem as long as I've been on the site and still makes me sad). But, like, do people actually ask opinions on this? I'm in a bit of a quandary there myself right now, hence the question.

Also, man, I picked a bad week to be gone. Sooo many posts. ><

Yes, yes, and heck yes to the first question. While one of my characters is harder to write for than the other, I enjoy them both, and feel like both have potential, so neither would really be an easy swap, in that respect. (Although, since I have a few plans for one of them with other handlers, I'd have to keep him alive until it wouldn't screw them up.)

I'd also say 'yes' to the second, but it can often be pretty challenging to get feedback. (Speaking of which, many thanks to NAFT for helping out with Ian!) This might just be my problem though, since my computer can't handle the chat (or much of anything really.). Perhaps it's just harder using the critique threads.

Actually, this brings up something I've kind of been wondering about - specifically, what if we did something like the V4 Read-A-Thon for V5 while it was still in progress, with the intent of offering feedback to interested handlers? Or perhaps roll a character of the (whatever) for people to discuss in general? It's just a thought off the top of my dead tired brain, though, so take it with a grain of salt.

[Grand Moff Hissa]

[+] The General SOTF Discussion Thread Part Thirteen

It is fairly easy. The one I enjoy writing more is the one that gets more attention from me.

I can't say I have any difficulties deciding who I love most, which is quite a weakness on my part.

I have fluctuating like and motivation with characters at any given time. It's on a post by post basis.

How do y'all churn out such massive posts like they're nothing? Jesus.

Personally, if I write something obnoxiously long, it's probably because I got inspired by some idea or other and then just ran with it to its logical conclusion. When I get rolling on something that really interests me, it tends to get lengthier just as a result of tangents/implications/completeness. Funnily, longer posts are often quicker to write for me because they mean I'm really attached to whatever I'm saying; my longest post in V4 was written in two sittings (and edited in a third) and sat at around 8,000 words.

On the other hand, a 400 word post might take me days of blank staring because it can mean that I just don't have anything to say, which totally saps all my inspiration.

I don't. My single longest post in V5 as of now is Carmina's death post at 1,000+ words, followed by Juhan's starting post at 900+. The average post I make is 100-400 words.

I'm honestly baffled by how you guys reach 2000+ words. My posts mainly consist of action with a sprinkling of thought. I'm not exactly good at navel-gazing.

About the V5 Read-a-thon thing Vyse suggested, i don't really see any problem with it. Although you'd need to do only the dead characters first, and we should probably wait until the halfway point if you want to do it while V5 is still progressing.

I actually don't think my verbosity is such a good thing. There's something to be said about a writer who can say so much in so few words. I have a real problem with keeping things short. I think it comes from the concept "show, not tell." I'm a pre-health major, so everything I write has to be backed up by loads and loads of science, so just leaving things creatively vague isn't easy for me. I'm working on it, though~

I took part in the v4 read-a-thon, and the people who wrote the smaller posts had a surprising amount to say in them. I really got a feel for certain characters, despite the brevity of the posts. Even this time around, I also have seen the same thing. One character had nine short posts, yet had said so much before the time of her death.

v5-Read-A-Thon could be fun. I've been a bit lax after the second rolls. I think I missed about seven characters before this most recent set of rolls. I need to play catch up

Here's a question: does anyone else have trouble sometimes figuring out which of their kids is working best/has the most potential? I mean, the answer is obviously yes (or, worse, people are certain the wrong way; handlers ditching their best characters early has been a problem as long as I've been on the site and still makes me sad). But, like, do people actually ask opinions on this? I'm in a bit of a quandary there myself right now, hence the question.

I have a specific three or four people I go to to ask about my characters - namely people who I know are reading them anyway and can give me an honest opinion about it. This is no longer a problem since I had to ditch Baxter, though - with one character, I can focus in on the things I seek to accomplish with Hansel.

I do feel like you need to be careful about who you ask for an opinion, though. While everyone means well for the most part, some are more reticent with feedback than others. I'm lucky enough to have a few handlers I consider friends who give it to me straight.

How do y'all churn out such massive posts like they're nothing? Jesus.

I snort massive amounts of cocaine before posting.

I snort massive amounts of cocaine before posting.

I knew it

Natali's actually a good example of what I usually don't do, since I feel like I never got into her head as much as I wanted to. I like to get really involved with my characters and keep notes on really obscure things about them that will never come up in the story, just because the more I know about them, the easier it is for me to write them.

It's one of the reasons why I regret not pregaming with Natali, since a lot of the time when I was writing her, I felt like someone looking at her from the outside instead of going along with her as she's doing things.

I generally have a goal with each of my posts and the length / how quickly I can write it depends on that goal and how long it takes for me to get there.

Post length for me is entirely dependent on the circumstances.

If stuff is happening (dialogue, action, etc), I prefer shorter posts because they have a feel of moving the action forward. It doesn't make sense for someone, in response to a single statement, to have 300-500 words of reflection about the conversation. They should just respond.

Similarly, if you have an opening post of a thread with a time-skip, often it's good to have a longer post that talks about what the character has been thinking about/doing while they've been off screen. It adds continuity to the story.

Just my 2 cents

(Already posted in Random Thoughts, but probably belongs here)

25th - Joey Caputo - Collar explosion due to interference by Rosemary Michaels
26th - Clayton Leven - Deliberately entered a Danger Zone
27th - Tessa Blackridge - Collar explosion due to tampering

Tic-Tac-Toe, three in a row.

M-M-M-MONSTER KILL

Post game evaluations? I would like to see my dead character mocked by terrorists with dry wit and sass.

Are you asking for someone to do them? "cause i'd do it.

I made a golf joke with Cecily for Venice's death. I thought it was pretty dry.

I was under the impression staff did post game evals. I know they don't do mid games.

Or maybe they are called post game because they happen at the end of everything. That would also make sense.

Anyone can post game evaluate.

I think I was told that handlers can do their own kids post game evals or let others do it with their permission. that'd have to be a lot of wit and sass from just the staff alone.

edit: ninja'd

Yeah, post-game is open game! Sometimes staffers do it, but a lot of us suck at dry wit. I basically have to save all my material for announcements/profile evals, or else I burn out and the important stuff sucks.

Here's a quick question I feel is important enough to get confirmation on but not quite major enough to pester a member of the staff over; does the island have running water?

This is something that the rules kind of confirm, but there's also stuff in there about the collar design that I think was from V4, which casts doubt as to the accuracy of the other IC stuff there. So, does the island actually have running water in some places or not?

The info in the FAQ regarding running water is accurate. I know, because I actually did pester staff about it via PM only last week, which resulted in its previous answer of "To be updated for V5" being updated!

Yeahhh, someone edited the FAQ to be updated and forgot to mention it (or everyone else forgot it was mentioned), while the rest of the staff built things on the assumption the FAQ was correct except where superseded by the prologue, which contained all the necessary revisions. Fun times were had by all.

The water, as before, is kinda nasty because the pipes have been unused for a long, long time.

Another entry in the FAQ which I observe has a "to be updated" answer is, "Where is this island?" Did this, as implied by the text "To be updated upon commencement of V5.", give a full answer for the duration of V4? And was this answer ever, or is it ever likely to be, anything other than "Not telling"?

Typically, the island's location is given when either a. it's plot relevant (as in V4) or b. the game is over (as in V3). I can't recall where the V1/2 islands were, but V4 was up the coast near Alaska and V3 was an old Pacific base left over from a Vietnam-era military deployment.

V1 and 2's locations were never given, actually, though I like to imagine v4's and v2's were in similar general areas. V2's island definitely seemed, like v5's, like a place where people lived - it was very urbanised and had lots of residential areas and such. V1 was somewhere a lot more remote.

EDIT: Also, while the v3 island's exact coordinates were never given, I should point out the location was always pretty clear for the players - that is, it being an abandoned Vietnam-era military base somewhere in the Pacific, that fact being spelled out repeatedly in many of the location descriptions.

Do staff have an official (V5) answer to the location question, or will they invent one if it ever becomes necessary?

We've got an answer, yeah. Since V3 at least, it's been planned out fairly early.

That said, unless there's a particular reason to release it early, it's going to be held a bit longer.I can see sharing it if we do any sort of cut-away to the off-island world, but other than that we're not going to focus on it. There's a tendency for disagreements about kinda inconsequential things/nitpicking about flora/fauna by latitude and such to turn up, which does no favors for the part of the game that's actually interesting and important.

Typically, the island's location is given when either a. it's plot relevant (as in V4) or b. the game is over (as in V3). I can't recall where the V1/2 islands were, but V4 was up the coast near Alaska and V3 was an old Pacific base left over from a Vietnam-era military deployment.

Perhaps one day, when this version is OVER, the location of the island will be announced. Or if it ever becomes plot relevant. XD

So when's SotF: Mars going to happen?

So when's SotF: Mars going to happen?

On some future season of SOTF: TV, I'd imagine. They're backed by the government.

Don't know where to post this, but this seems like an okay place.

Just shot a PM at staff. I know I usually hear back faster if I let one of y'all know.

Thank yee!

I'll give it a look!

Also, you can always PM a staffer directly. It's often quicker, and we still discuss it as a group and give a collective ruling.

Looking at the death category in the awards thread, I realize that there were a bunch of nice death scenes particularly from the victim side of things, so that will be very difficult to pick just one. In fact not just death scenes, but a couple of scenes or plots outside of deaths this month have been very good. Seems like after a little bit, the overall story of the version is starting to take on a bit of shape.

^ I can't agree harder.

Also, it's nice to see multiple victim killers, too! I'm looking most forward to more range on that particular spectrum in the coming weeks.

So how many kills is Max Sawyer allowed to rack up before the Maxwell Lombardi jokes start

It looks like this round's deaths are going to really get things rolling for a few people. I'm excited

Honestly, I don't care about BDA any more now that there's no prize*. I know the justification was that there was a low rate of participation in the awards, but if anything, the rate of participation in the quote contests has been even lower.

I reckon one sure-fire way to increase participation would be to remove the requirement to give detail on one's vote, which is something not a lot of people are going to have the time or ability to do - I personally find it quite difficult. At the very least, some sort of 'me too' system for upvoting other people's votes might improve the situation.

An idea I had last night for an alternative prize was to allow the winner to choose one of the danger zones in the next day's announcement. Has this been considered?

* For those of us on Zeta Original, a non-existent scrolling quote is effectively "no prize". The first I ever hear about the previous month's award is when I log out to vote on the following month's.

So how many kills is Max Sawyer allowed to rack up before the Maxwell Lombardi jokes start

Already being made!

Im iffy on the bda award, if only on the chance that there's no dialogue in a death thread.

Honestly, I don't care about BDA any more now that there's no prize*. I know the justification was that there was a low rate of participation in the awards, but if anything, the rate of participation in the quote contests has been even lower.

I reckon one sure-fire way to increase participation would be to remove the requirement to give detail on one's vote, which is something not a lot of people are going to have the time or ability to do - I personally find it quite difficult. At the very least, some sort of 'me too' system for upvoting other people's votes might improve the situation.

An idea I had last night for an alternative prize was to allow the winner to choose one of the danger zones in the next day's announcement. Has this been considered?

* For those of us on Zeta Original, a non-existent scrolling quote is effectively "no prize". The first I ever hear about the previous month's award is when I log out to vote on the following month's.

It actually had more to do with the Null Prize skewing things and the voting process that had some 'meta' reasons being played to effect the game. I'm sure someone on the staff here can explain better than I would if they were inclined. The voting with no reasons could actually make things worse in that way.

Plus I love seeing reasons why people voted certain ways. >_<

They are always looking for ideas as prizes though, so of course that's always something people can suggest.

The quotes are a nice little thing that is fun to give attention to certain characters, but the only thing that had me thinking was what if there was a really good death scene, but quotable dialogue wasn't involved in the scene? That's one issue with it, that I'm sure the alternative would be to just suggest a quote from before the death scene or something, but still, not every character will be quotable ones if they're all talking like regular students.

@Danger-zones: My personal issue with that, is a lone handler may be able to influence/screw over a bunch of characters doing something in a particular area. While usually the staff talk it out a little bit amongst each other and determine a reasonable area to declare dangerzone, so it's more than one person's decision.

EDIT: AND THEN UNPERSONA NINJA'D MY SAME POINT! (About quotes)

Ain't nothing wrong with quoting narrative.

[words] - Character's narrator

Seems a bit awkward u.u

Short and sweet, ya so good at that, NAFT.

If that's allowed, then hey it's a great idea to continue. Edit: Though yeah, the quote credit is the iffy part now that I think of it.

Ain't nothing wrong with quoting narrative.

Doesn't fit the remit of the scrolling quote, though. I know I've written a lot of narrative which I'm a hell of a lot prouder of than my dialogue, but I don't think it could ever count as a 'quote'.

Why not?

It's the character's thought process that's unique to them. You'd quote a thought or a reaction or a poignant piece of the post, then credit the character as normal.

If it was first-person, I'd agree with you. That said, I wouldn't mind using thoughts. The ones clearly shown as their's, that is.

I imagine "Francis smiled." would not be quotable material, yeah.

hm...

On second thought, maybe thoughts aren't such a good idea. Quotes need to...well, quotable. Like someone could quote them on what they say.

So how many kills is Max Sawyer allowed to rack up before the Maxwell Lombardi jokes start

Already being made!

Where?

(Four people isn't that excessive. )

@Danger-zones: My personal issue with that, is a lone handler may be able to influence/screw over a bunch of characters doing something in a particular area. While usually the staff talk it out a little bit amongst each other and determine a reasonable area to declare dangerzone, so it's more than one person's decision.

The current set of DZs were randomly rolled, or at least I think that's what Rugga said in chat. (Forgive me if I'm misremembering.) I can see there'd be potential for mischief, although I'm more concerned about the possibility of holding up announcements if handlers are slow to choose.

Honestly, I don't care about BDA any more now that there's no prize*. I know the justification was that there was a low rate of participation in the awards, but if anything, the rate of participation in the quote contests has been even lower.

I reckon one sure-fire way to increase participation would be to remove the requirement to give detail on one's vote, which is something not a lot of people are going to have the time or ability to do - I personally find it quite difficult. At the very least, some sort of 'me too' system for upvoting other people's votes might improve the situation.

An idea I had last night for an alternative prize was to allow the winner to choose one of the danger zones in the next day's announcement. Has this been considered?

* For those of us on Zeta Original, a non-existent scrolling quote is effectively "no prize". The first I ever hear about the previous month's award is when I log out to vote on the following month's.

A few things:

1. It's totally cool if you're not interested in BDA for its own sake. Honestly, we'd far rather have nobody give a hoot than people gunning for the awards in awkward ways, which was very much the state of affairs during V4.

There seems to be a common misunderstanding of the motivation behind the contest: it currently exists to celebrate good writing, not to encourage it. If you're gonna write a good scene, it should be because you're invested in your character and their storyline and want to give them a proper sendoff, not to win an award.

2. We will never, ever have an upvote thing. The requirements for voting are very low already, honestly. You explain why you liked a death a lot. Any sort of upvote would require the reasons be visible in advance, and there are very, very good reasons they are not (see: any V4 award outside the last two).

3. DZ selection is an interesting idea, but unfortunately veers between useless and vindictive, with only a small "cool" middle ground. A DZ forces an end on a scene wherever it's put, which makes it a powerful way to mess up someone's day. Staff drops DZs in a few ways:
[ul]
[li]When scenes are dragging and/or days behind IC, to speed them along and restore momentum.[/li]
[li]When a DZ in a certain place is logical, either because of other DZ placements or because of IC actions.[/li]
[li]At random[/li]
[/ul]
There's a lot more thought that goes into the first two than may be immediately apparent. Handlers would be reduced to the third or to spite-DZing people, and we do not want to see that last one ever under any circumstances.

Im iffy on the bda award, if only on the chance that there's no dialogue in a death thread.

It can be anything the character said, and I'm pretty sur every character has now had some dialogue.

Ain't nothing wrong with quoting narrative.

If it's both good and compact, I have no issues with that. I prefer dialogue, by and large, but narrative can be fun too.

The current set of DZs were randomly rolled, or at least I think that's what Rugga said in chat. (Forgive me if I'm misremembering.) I can see there'd be potential for mischief, although I'm more concerned about the possibility of holding up announcements if handlers are slow to choose.

That was a misunderstanding and was only used last announcement. Random rolls are the last choice.

How about give the winner the opportunity to write Danya's re-hash of a death in the next announcement?

We're trying really hard to avoid the "Danya has multiple personalities" thing from V5 out. A large part of the decision to replace Victor Danya, actually, was to get an announcer with a consistent voice. As such, that one would be tough to work, especially since we sometimes tend to close BKA/BDA and then immediately post the announcement.

When a DZ in a certain place is logical, either because of other DZ placements or because of IC actions.

Sudden thought I just had: would it be possible to arrange the DZs in such a way that part of the island could be physically cut off from all other parts?

When a DZ in a certain place is logical, either because of other DZ placements or because of IC actions.

Sudden thought I just had: would it be possible to arrange the DZs in such a way that part of the island could be physically cut off from all other parts?

It would be possible IC, but due to the OOC logistics involved in actually RPing during that we'd never do it. It' difficult enough to keep characters on the same day; necessitating separation into two (or more) zones would be a horrible nightmare. Even accounting for the DZing of the South East Woods during V4 made everything way more annoying for the rest of the game (imagine the island as a bicycle wheel, and suddenly one of the spokes is impassable).

I always thought that roll nulls were over powered. At the same time, I thought that giving a handler such a reward seemed moderately appropriate.

Having roll nulls in existence is simply too much power to be giving away every (in game) day.

I mean, people are pretty shell shocked about not being able to recieve a null. To the point where it's almost depressing to know we'll never be able to recieve one.

On the other hand, it's just too much power. I at one point thought that if we went to the halfway point and had a revote of every body who had won. That would limit roll nulls. The issue with that though is that the roll nulls then are even more powerful because they are fewer.

In short, roll nulls are bad. The only way I could ever think of establishing balance would be allowing the winner to select a number of characters to be immune to rolls for a single round. This way, it may not even come into play (none of the protected characters may be rolled) and it expires right away.

However, this would create a new system entirely. There would probably still be back alley deals and alliances going on. People might beg to have their characters protected. It would take a long time to perfect any kind of workable system.

I think having a nonfabulous and dramaless reward is totally fine. Even if it might be improvable, it doesn't present any issues.

The "immune to one roll" thing would effectively be the same as a roll null, except affecting multiple characters.

The other reason we didn't go with an immediate "X character(s) become immune to the next rolls" thing is that, unfortunately, such a setup becomes way more powerful as the game goes on. At the start, the odds of being rolled are fairly low, while near Endgame protection form a single roll can almost double a character's chances of hitting Endgame. At the same time, participation in contests always trails off as the game goes on, so once again it'd be putting tons of power in a few hands at the most critical moment of the game.

Seems like it would lend all too easy to favouritism, too, which was a big problem in v3 and sections of v4. Otherwise yeah, my suggestion would've been one-time roll immunity for the BDA winner so they don't get run out of v5 too quickly.

Just my two cents, but just having Francis' death voted BDA was a pretty amazing feeling in and of itself. It's the same with, like, the plastic hammers and stuff; it's always nice to see your character's name somewhere on there. Gives me a good feeling.

That's true Pippin. I felt the same exact way when I ended up gaining the bda vote for sotf-tv. I mean, the null was a nice bonus, but to suddenly realize that people actually liked it, just made me really happy.

Having your stuff be mentioned in a positive way by this community is always a nice feeling. Usually we point out things we hate and criticize the heck out or make fun of it, so seeing a positive is a positive.

It's why I try to give credit where it's due when I can, when someone posts something I like. I want to let them know. Whether that be in this thread, or the spotlight thread, or any other. Whether that be participation in the awards game, or saying a quick thing in chat or the wiki. Or maybe if its sometimes secretly through PM out of nowhere. (I like doing this last one).

For me I'm not trying to kiss up, even though it may look like it sometimes. It's just I know it's cool when you know other people read stuff and end up liking it personally, so as much as possible I want people to know when what they're storytelling is cool and that someone is reading and liking it. Especially when, like me, you already know something else you posted wasn't so good. It's sort of encouraging and can brighten up days sometimes.

---

BTW: I am not saying we should only say nice things. In case there is any confusion there. In fact, you can PM me criticism whenever, because that can help me. Better than people hating it and you not knowing.

I may be mistaken, but doesn't Poor Unfortunate Souls take place on Day 2? When the amusement park was a danger zone?

You're mistaken~

Already being made!

Where?

(Four people isn't that excessive. )

Not excessive, just several kills in a short period of time and they're both pompous guys named Max.

Edit: At swirlythingy's question: We're going to assume that it doesn't, since the characters are not blowing up. That was a bit of being an airhead on my part.

Yeah, Poor Unfortunate is set on Day Three's night.

Natali was barely staying upright. She seemed the hardest struck by this, now, despite her initial resilience. It had taken Adam a long while to notice, because he'd been so wrapped up in not thinking. During those times when he had turned his attention outside, it had been with an eye towards keeping them safe from possible ambushes, especially during the night they'd spent on the move. It was almost night again, and they couldn't endure another without real rest. The offices, seemingly so sub-par at first, now felt like they would've been paradise. Returning to them wasn't an option, however. Adam didn't like looking back.

Mark Little was dead on the ground, apparently fallen from the roller coaster. Adam wasn't sure if that was a good or a bad way to die, given the circumstances and other options here.

The reference to a night spent travelling moves things clearly to Day Three, because the group spent its first night in the offices. It's just that some time got skipped due to a lot of RL stuff and thread slowness and such.

especially during the night they'd spent on the move. It was almost night again, and they couldn't endure another without real rest.

OK, thanks, that clears that up.

Potentially stupid question which has been eating at me for a while:

Which was the fox, which was the wolf, and which was the lamb?

Potentially stupid question which has been eating at me for a while:

Which was the fox, which was the wolf, and which was the lamb?

I'm pretty sure "the lamb" was Adonis. Got me on which-is-which for the fox and the wolf, though.

The lamb is easy: Adonis. Jo and Jaq are doing this whole hunting thing, ensuring a kill for the whole 24 hour thing, and lambs are often used as symbols of sacrifice. Adonis happened to be the sacrifice to the 24 hour rule that day.

I think the wolf would be Jaq, considering her debut thread was titled "who's afraid of the big bad wolf".

And the fox would be Joachim, because there's one left over.

Jaq's the cleverer, non-actiony one. She's the fox.

Joachim is the tough fighter dude, therefore he's the wolf.

...At least, I'm pretty sure that's it.

Adonis is them all?

IDK, my BFF, Jill?

[+] Spoiler

[Ed 2019: Spoiler was title "Character whoring, don't look if it burns you." but this was removed for formatting on the new site]EDIT:) I'd also like to point out that only Adonis has referred to any sort of hunt. Also, the "kill once a day" thing is not the only motivation. Other people are killing and they know this, so their participation isn't required. I won't go on because chatwhorring is evil, but this came up in the podcast too so clearly I need to revisit how I'm presenting things.

the real question is who were the two people in the distance?

I thought it was Paulo and Becca who were. That is according to the thread name I'm guessing you're referring to.

By the way was the name of that thread a The Walking Dead reference?

The Paulo and Becca thing? If so, nope! I was just noticing, while rereading old threads, that they'd often be like "James had seen a crazy boy with a blue shirt and glasses on the first day!" and it wouldn't be any use at all because now, three versions later, that description is not iconic. Or, worse, "James heard a rattle of machine gun fire, the first of the game." and of course nobody remembers who was the first to fire a machine gun in V2 or whatever. So I took what would be an impenetrable reference that was super obvious at the time and called it out, drawing some attention to the device.

How relevant is immediately getting those references, though? Like, is it necessarily bad that people wouldn't immediately know that information if it weren't for the thread title?

That said, character narratives not at least once naming a character they're interacting with bugs me. Even if the characters don't know who each other are (unlikely, given that Aurora is not that large of a school), I still find it hugely useful if the other character is named at least once.

That said, character narratives not at least once naming a character they're interacting with bugs me. Even if the characters don't know who each other are (unlikely, given that Aurora is not that large of a school), I still find it hugely useful if the other character is named at least once.

I dunno, there's probably something like 50-100 kids in pregame who didn't make it on the island, and assuming all class sizes are the mostly the same, that's a lot of names to remember.

Then there's the thing of whether the narrator is omniscient or not...

I think it's very relevant if it was written under the assumption that people would know (and nine out of ten times, it is). Getting the full context of a post is a pretty big deal; it's why invisitext annoyed some handlers, since it meant they were having to go back and reread to understand things.

Now, if something's designed as an Easter egg, sure, leave it vague. I'm sure other handlers hide stuff (I know I do). If it's alluding to a specific event, though, I like to know which, and there's no real reason not to.

As to names, I feel that that's on each handler to work in. If a character doesn't now another's name, using it anyways involves breaking narrative voice, which can be a huge no no depending on your style (I skew heavy duty third-person limited, and you have to go omniscient to get the name in). The handler of the unknown character should be using their kid's name enough to have it all understood, or else the issue's more with their style.

What I'm referring to is something more like this: let's say a character hears a gunshot and runs away from it, so that character never really knows who shot it or why. Does it matter that someone know that reading it later?

And yeah, I guess other characters should have their names in the narrative. I guess I typically write from an omniscient narrative voice, so the idea that it would break flow doesn't resonate strongly with me >.>

Also, assuming the class size at Aurora is roughly 300, by the end of senior year most students should know most of them.

My high school was 100/class and I knew everyone after 6 months. Even thinking about my time in college, there are ~1k kids/class and I probably know about 40% going into senior year.

What I'm referring to is something more like this: let's say a character hears a gunshot and runs away from it, so that character never really knows who shot it or why. Does it matter that someone know that reading it later?

I find it's usually more useful to the current scene at hand, as it should be. Throws a little somethin something of the reality of the island at the kids, which is nice. Or just give them a good excuse to start running and move on to the next thread.

AND BECAUSE I WAS NINJAD

Also, assuming the class size at Aurora is roughly 300, by the end of senior year most students should know most of them.

My high school was 100/class and I knew everyone after 6 months. Even thinking about my time in college, there are ~1k kids/class and I probably know about 40% going into senior year.

I dunno bout you, but that's a lot of names to me >_>

I certainly don't know everyone in my grade, hell, I'm just barely starting to remember most of my new teachers name three weeks into the year.

Thread title of Wolf/Fox/Lamb:

My interpretation was that that the lamb was Adonis (Duh) and that Joachim represented the wolf, and Jaq the fox. The reasoning is that wolves are usually seen as brutal and savage animals and often were the villians in fairy tales (Some may have noticed that we have a fairy tale theme through our thread titles). Foxes, however, are often seen as cunning and to a certain extend manipulative. If we take a look at Japanese mythology, we may even say that Jaq is just a fix who disguised herself as a human female, but that is just an after-thought.

What I find ironic is that wolves are social animals, while foxes are somewhat more solitary (They still form families, but the drive for a social group is not as strong, but I disgress). However, Joachim was pre-island the solitary type while Jaq was the social butterfly, so to say.

Knowing faces:

I actually have a hard time remembering names and faces, and most people I worked together over the years had to live with being degraded to "That talkative girl that collected visual material", or "The boy who was not particulary good at hiding his dislike of me". Now, even if one managed to memorize all the faces and names, even if it seems like a useless task, there is still something called Dunbar's number. This concept states that a human can only hold active social relationships with a limited amount of people. That number lies at 150, though some other alternatives have been expressed. So, even if you knew a face and a name, one may not be able to tell how one feels about someone whom they went to school with. Or even moreso, the relationships between the various classmates.

Naming names in the narrative:

I try to keep the information in the narrative to what the character knows. This is crucial to my writing style, at least with Aileen. You see, I like to imagine that the narrator is actually a split personality living inside of the character's mind. The narrator has to draw on the emotions and knowledge of the character, though due to the narrator's different personality, she may be able to comment on the character's thought process from time to time. Mentioning the names of people the character does not know would break this "drawing from the character's mind" style.

Disclaimer: IC they do not have a split personality.

Huh, it's almost like we had a thread about this exact subject not too long ago...

Sarcasm aside Slamexo and I talked at length about all the statistics that go into that assumption, and gave a little anecdote that it really all comes down to the person/character.

Huh, it's almost like we had a thread about this exact subject not too long ago...

Oh good, I was just about to link to that.

The lesson I took from that thread was that some people miraculously know every name and face from a class of 10000000000, some have trouble remembering their own name, and never the twain shall meet. In spite of the fact that both personality types clearly exist, sceptical comments were made from both sides regarding the realism and believability of any characters written from the perspective of the other side.

Me, I was in an A-level maths class which the college was only running for the look of the thing, which had dwindled down to like six students by the end of the second year, and I still had trouble remembering who they all were.

I'm almost tempted to not look at Alex's death post and just let SOTF: REPERCUSSIONS OF EVIL be the extent of my knowledge.

Ooh, interesting stuff.

You see, I like to imagine that the narrator is actually a split personality living inside of the character's mind. The narrator has to draw on the emotions and knowledge of the character, though due to the narrator's different personality, she may be able to comment on the character's thought process from time to time. Mentioning the names of people the character does not know would break this "drawing from the character's mind" style.

That's a very interesting method. I tend towards a much more locked narrator/character relationship; what goes through a character's head tends to be what pops up in their narrative, with any cuts/exclusions made as nods towards readability and/or overall story. There are very few times when I break out of what the character knows in the present, and when I do it's either a. a mistake or b. nefarious foreshadowing (as an example, I'd never say "Thinking about it later, James would conclude..." unless I'm positive James will have a later in which to think about it. And in SOTF, that takes some doing!).

As to faces, yeah, I'm awful. Two weeks in, I still don't know the names of everyone in my workshop. Which has six students in it. Counting me. ><

Finally, while we're explaining thread titles, Steven's latest oneshot is of course alluding to the fact that, like Cody Jenson, he is going insane after getting hit in the head with a crowbar.

You see, I like to imagine that the narrator is actually a split personality living inside of the character's mind. The narrator has to draw on the emotions and knowledge of the character, though due to the narrator's different personality, she may be able to comment on the character's thought process from time to time. Mentioning the names of people the character does not know would break this "drawing from the character's mind" style.

I've made the mistake of slipping in the name of a character when 'my' character does not know them. This is usually when the sentence feels uncertain as to who it's referring to, and beating around the bush would break the suspension of disbelief even more. Have you ever seen anyone use the phrase 'What's-Her-Name' to refer to someone? Ironically, maybe, but not seriously.

But the way you put all of this is interesting, and it's made me consider something along the same lines. SOTF, and board roleplays in general, lend themselves to very odd narrative structures. It's because people have different ideas on how to write, and as such they have different styles or 'narrators'. Most of us know how a story is basically told; you tell the reader what the other character did, how your character feels, what they will do in response, etc. But with style put into the equation things change. Usually, the way Person A tells a story will be different from Person B. (Unless Person B is copying Person A or vise versa, what cheaters.)

I like the kind of narrator you're describing, the one who is basically living inside the character's head, but some people really can't quite jell with that. I go with more of a 'storyteller' narrator, who knows everything that is going to happen, may feel the need foreshadow or add exposition when need be but for the most part will keep the focus on the character.

There are others who focus squarely on their character's actions and emotions and rarely forgo exposition unless it is absolutely necessary. Some take flights of fancy, some stay grounded.

I feel this is my favorite part about SOTF. Being exposed to so many different styles and playing off of them is really cool. It's great for learning how to write because reading is as integral to this game as writing.

(This is also why making the entirety of V5/V4/V3/V# into one contained 'book' would be way more difficult than people make it out to be.)

Finally, while we're explaining thread titles, Steven's latest oneshot is of course alluding to the fact that, like Cody Jenson, he is going insane after getting hit in the head with a crowbar.

Uh oh...

So hey, let's give a booster to some site discussion since there's been a bit of a lull 'cause of the crash.

What do you guys think of V5 so far? How's it compare to other versions? Who're some people/characters to watch?

[Grand Moff Hissa]

Your Top Ten

A V3-era thread cataloging individual handlers' ten favorite characters. Inspired a longer-running, more involved sequel later on.

[+] Your Top Ten

Recently, I got curious/restless, and I started figuring who my Top 10 favourites were (my mind, at times, is very random) Since this is spawned solely from a wandering head, I'll not lay down any limitations, they can be your own characters, V3, V2 or V1 or anybody else's, and I'd ask for a reason too but I'm none too fussed if there isn't one.

Here are mine

10. Vesa Turunen.
I was intruiged by Vesa as soon as I stumbled upon him in one of the first threads I read on the site. I enjoyed his background and I like the way Croco portrayed him on the island.

9. Robert Adams.
Quite simply; I found him pretty funny a great deal of the time.

8. Danya
I'm not actually kidding, I like the character of Danya quite a lot in all honesty

7. Brandon Cuthbert.
I really liked the way that Slacker rped Brandon, so it was a bit of a shame he died so early on.

6. Adam Dodd.
I am a Dodd fan, a deep character and was highly amusing at times, I'm also looking forward to seeing him in V3.

5. Hawley Faust.
Hm... not entirely sure how to qualify this. Suffice to say, I liked him.

4. Bobby Jacks/ Simon Wood
This of course, being the reason I mentioned that you could pick your own characters I like both of these lads, because they seem to have a lot more depth than them to most of my others. That is open to interpretation, it's only my opinion.

3. Mitch Gunter.
Mitch was funny, and just plain cute, an adorable character methinks.

2. Mariavel Varella.
Some people don't seem to like her but I think Mariavel is a well developed and well thought out character.

And finally... *fanfare*

1. Damien Carter-Madison
Where can I start? The list was great, his death scene was extremely creepy, I think that LaZ did a wonderful job with him, and I'm looking forward to seeing his old friend Eduardo too. Kudos to you LaZ man.


And that'll be it, my top ten (for now at least) any other takers?

*Throws Clueless a bone.*

Not sure why nobody's responded to this, I rather like the idea myself, but, I'm bored, and this is here, so, TADA!

Top Ten from V2:

#10. Mitch Gunther. What can I say? I don't care that he wasn't a huge character in V2. I loved Mitch. He was such a unique character by design, and I loved the way Maka portrayed him. Even after Nealosi took him over, he retained that odd, quirky sort of personality that was characteristic of only Mitch, and he provided a lot of comic relief in the very early stages of the game.

#9. Jackie Kovacs. Jackie's another character who saw his days end early in the game, but he's almost symbolic of characters like Andrew Lipson or Hawley Faust in that he was remembered long after his death and had a very great impact over certain other characters (Ricky Callahan and Gail Smith, to name a few). Jackie was a great character in the way he was written, and his death brought more to him overall.

#8. Anna Dibenidetti. Yes, my number eight would be Anna. I mean, c'mon, we haven't seen this kind of angsty character in SOTF since, like, nearly the beginning of V1. She was such a sad character. Her sister died early on, and the whole game she spent angsting over Jaime's death. Then, her death scene was truly just... tragic. It was so ironic that she wound up killing the one person on the island who held some genuine concern for her, and out of sheer accident, too.

#7. Felix Travertil. At first, I didn't really care for Felix too much. But, there was something in his personality that I couldn't help but be attracted to, and he wound up being a pretty interesting character overall. Yet again, his death scene was freakin' awesome. Probably one of the best in V2, in my own humble opinion.

#6. Carmen Somerset. I just liked Carmen. Period. I liked her in pre-game and the very early stages of V1 when Maka portrayed her, I liked her after Mitsuko took her over. I think Mitsu did a very good job of keeping Carmen true to her character, which I definitely appreciated. We definitely had our fair share of the manipulative, deceiving characters in V2, but Carmen stood out from among them as being one of the best.

#5. Sera Wingfield. Sera wound up just being... whoa. She was a trip to roleplay as, and although it might seem rather bias to slide one of my own characters into my top ten favorites, it doesn't change the fact that I thought she was a great character, and considering she was supposed to be Gregg-fodder to begin with, not to mention just another place-filler in the Sisterhood, she wound up holding her own and standing out a lot more than some of the other characters. I think it was her scene with Matt Drew that stands out most in my mind and solidified her place as one of my favorites.

#4. Matt Drew. Surprise, surprise, Matt's next on my list of favorites. When I first saw him, I was just kind of like, "Oh, another comic relief character, that's cute." Baby managed to take him and really do something with him, though. He retained his whole persona throughout the very large majority of the game, and he and Rob were a hell of a duo. The ongoing moments with various ladies around the island honestly cracked me up, because you couldn't help but feel sorry for the guy, and although I had some part in his death, I still have to say, I thought it was great.

#3. Matthias Kovalenko. Now, realize, I liked Matthias when I played him, otherwise, I wouldn't have taken him over in the first place, but the real reason Matthias was one of my absolute favorites was the way that he was portrayed by Makaze, not myself. Matthias was just a great character. Well-rounded, well-portrayed, totally realistic. It's a shame that Maka dropped out of the roleplay so early on, because I'd have loved to see what would've become of him under her control.

#2. Bryan Calvert. I'd say I was a closet Calvert fan, but I'd be lying. I mean, I sacrificed my spot as one of the potential winners to keep the guy in the game. It's awesome to see a character evolve and grow so much, and the more Cyco's writing improved, the bigger Bryan Calvert became. I'm impressed with the character overall, and I'm definitely glad he made it as far into the game as he did. He helped provide a lot of the "action" element that V2 was lacking in, and his overall personality and attitude helped him solidify his spot as my #2.

#1. Blake Ross. "What the hell?", I hear some of you saying, but yes, Blake Ross was definitely my number one favorite character in V2. Definitely one of the most realistic characters in this game, Nealosi just added some sort of underdog element to him where, even from the early stages of the game, I was rooting for him to win. Needless to say, I was crushed when he was, well, crushed. Haha.

---

Top Ten from V1:

#10. Miranda Grey. Who? That's probably what a lot of you are asking right about now. Miranda Grey was a short-lived character, created by handler Tayli_Vreeland (you might know him as SweetPea22, which was his most recent handler name), who was somewhat of a local figure (she was a kidnapping victim who'd actually been able to return home) as well as the ex-girlfriend of Eddie Serjeantson. Miranda might not have served much of a role in V1, but her personality was just fantastic, and I haven't seen a character quite like her since. Definitely one of my top ten favorites in V1.

#9. Edward Rommel. Another underrated character, who I thought was just fantastic. I don't think there's been another autistic character since Ed, and he's still remained quite a unique character. His death motivated Garrett Langston to attempt to win the game, if only to return his jacket to his parents. As we all know, Garrett failed, but it was still a very touching story.

#8.Eddie Serjeantson. I loved Eddie. Period. D0ddi0slave didn't do too much with him, he was only around for a few threads, but he was another character with a unique personality and a lot of charisma, and I wouldn't have minded seeing him go quite a bit farther in the game than he managed to go. Eddie was just an awesome character.

#7. Mallory DeLuca. When I said we hadn't seen a character quite so angsty as Anna since V1, Mallory was who I was talking about. Mallory wasn't angsty in the usual annoying way, but this poor girl just had absolutely rotten luck. The whole sidestory with she and Glenn Hughes was very sweet, especially near the end when she wanted to sacrifice herself to Peri Barclay (or was it Stevan?) so that Glenn could live, and as soon as she choose herself to die, Glenn was shot. It was really sad, even though the overall scene got ruined just a bit when somebody else was thrown into the mix.

#6. Martyn Ferdinand. Not so much just Martyn, but I loved the trio of Jack, Martyn, and Jill. They were definitely my favorite little group toward the end of V1, and I think Riser and I definitely created a bit of a stir-up during the end of the trio when Angelina Kaige launched a grenade into the warehouse that Jack managed to escape from completely unscathed, while both Martyn and Jill died quite bloody deaths. Plus, Martyn's blood loss rant was just great.

#5. Madelaine Shirohara/Nanami Nishida. Maka's pride and joy was definitely one of my favorite characters. She managed to keep Madelaine an interesting character throughout the game, and arguably the best (in my opinion) scene was the scene between Madelaine and Nanami Nishida. This whole scene was just amazing, and it solidified both characters as two of my all-time V1 favorites. Madelaine's death scene, too, was so, just... wow. Absolutely controversial, and probably one of the most well-known scenes in V1.

#4. Cillian Crowe. Cillian's probably my all-time favorite villain ever, not just in V1. He was absolutely mental, and he pretty much killed everything that moved in disgustingly gorey ways. The truth is, he added an element to V1 that V2 disappointed me in, because he was absolutely insane. Everywhere he went, somebody died horrifically, and I absolutely ate it up. Plus, writing doesn't actually make me sick very often, but I nearly threw up when Cillian wrenched Ash Holmes' tongue right out of his mouth.

#3. Sidney Crosby. What can I say? I was part of the Sidney Crosby fanclub back in V1. I don't really know why Sid wound up having a following, but somehow, he did. To me, he really had this whole personality that was just out for himself, and he really seemed to convey it in the warehouse near the end of the game. There was just something about Sid that I really liked, and I enjoyed his story.

#2. Adam Dodd. Of course, the fan-decided "main character" of V1 is going to be on this list, because this is the character that d0ddi0slave basically learned how to roleplay with. He spanned the length of the whole game, and it's just crazy to re-read this huge story about Adam and see how much he's changed (and how different d0ddi0's writing has become). By the way, one of my absolute favorite scenes in V1 was Adam's first kill, one, Mr. Blaine Eno. Every time I hear Semisonic's "Closing Time", I remember this scene.

#1. Hawley Faust. Hawley is absolutely my all-time favorite character in V1. First of all, his metamorphasis from one of the island's leading villains into a reformed hero was amazing and absolutely believable, and Riser did a great job with it. Secondly, Hawley became a symbol after he died, and he influenced the entire remainder of his group in one way or another. He was an important enough character to be included in V1's epilogue, and I couldn't help but smile during that scene when all the memories of Adam and Hawley came flooding back as I read it.

---

So, there you have it, my V1 and V2 favorites. I'd do V3, but to be really honest, there hasn't been enough roleplaying for me to really tell who I like early on, and it'd be based solely on profiles. And, I'm lazy, so I don't want to reread them all.

Well...I can't really do too much in terms of V2 characters, just because I didn't read a lot of V2. But here's my list, I guess.

Honourable mention: Gabrielle Minase - Simply put, for one very, very special reason. 'Minase got AIDS and died.' LOL. One of the most unintentionally hilarious things that I think's ever been posted in SOTF.

10. Nanami Nishida - Was such a small part of V1, but had such a huge impact upon some of the main characters, and was part of that thread that had some of the funniest bloody moments in V1 in it. She was a supporting player but had a huge impact.

9. Bryan Calvert - Of what I've read of V2, Bryan's been the most real to me. I don't know why, but I took a liking to the character from the beginning and he's been one of the only ones I've tried to follow. I hope he pulls it off.

8. Andrew Lipson - I don't know why I felt so strongly about Andrew, but I think it's because somehow, the way he died really seemed to come up over and over again for me. For the amount of time he was on island, he made a huge impact upon Adam, at the very least - sort of conveyed the utter hopelessness of the whole thing.

7. Cillian Crowe - This one had so much enormous potential to be the villain, people were nearly fantastizing over the eventual Hawley/Cillian showdown that never really happened. The way that Cillian just destroyed people was...well, sick. But awesome. He was basically the first-half villain of V1.

6. Jacob Starr - I know Kyle's said he didn't like his V1 characters, but I did like Jacob. Jacob was like, the T-1000. He just kept coming. He made the conscious decision to play, and then played as methodically as possible. When an ally became useless, Jacob would discard them. I don't know, I just found him really...real, and I liked that about him. Plus I think he was the biggest early-game motivator.

5. Sidney Crosby - How the hell did Sidney Crosby become so popular? I can say without any doubt, he was the most fun character I RPed with ever, including Adam, including anyone. Just because he was so goofy, uncoordinated, pompous, and so completely useless it was hysterical.

4. Cody Jenson - Cody at first was a character that I was like 'um, okay' but was in fact the reason I made Sidney Crosby, to be a foil for him. In doing that, it basically set the stage for Cody to become the bona-fide villain for V1. And GJ played him SO well, like, this kid was nuts. It was a shame that he left in the middle, so we didn't get to play the whole thing with him, but Cody was just so well done, he just slowly lost his mind - being as he was unstable to begin with. Plus, nobody'll ever forget the rape scene. I know I won't.


Top 3 time! *drumroll*




3. Hawley Faust - How can you not like Hawley Faust? He had quite possibly the most drastic, yet realistic character development in the whole V1, and was probably the one character everyone could identify with. Couple that with the fact that he was written so wonderfully by Riser, and he just...he was a HUGE part of V1, regardless of the fact that he didn't even make the half-way point. People were constantly referencing him and whatnot up til the end.



2. Adam Dodd - Okay, I can't help myself. Adam was basically how I wanted to see myself in such a situation. But I tried to play him just as a normal kind of guy, with a filthy mouth, and a naitivity about himself. He tried to roll with the punches and I figured he'd never kill anyone. How much he changed just astonished me, as V1 went on and he just kept lasting. Who he was at the beginning of V1 as opposed to the end of it was a triumph for me personally in terms of writing, just because I actually took a character and developed the shit out of him, and thought (in my own opinion) that I did it pretty well. We'll see how he goes in V3, as I couldn't resist bringing him back for another go.


Finally, #1...


1. Madelaine Shirohara - I cannot think of a character that I was more upset when they died. Not a single one. I think I was more upset with Madelaine's death than I would have been if Adam had died. She was my favourite character in all of V1, just because she was the glue that held the 'big group' together. I had always wished that we could have had more time with Madelaine to see how she would have coped in the long term to the situation. She was written so wonderfully and so real, that you could almost imagine that it was a real person speaking. Madelaine was strong, and had so much to live for, it seemed - her death I know shocked a hell of a lot of people - me being one of them. I think she had the biggest impact on SOTF in terms of her actions on the island and her death becoming significant - namely, her death set in motion events that would impact throughout the rest of the first SOTF. There won`t ever be another Madelaine - as much as I wish there could be.


So that`s it. Maybe I`ll have more of an opinion on V3 characters once V3 starts.

Here's my v2 top ten (I'll do a v1 top ten when I find ten v1 characters I like). Allow me to clarify that this isn't based at all on how well they were written, just what appealed to me for whatever reason. Which means that if your character isn't on here I obviously either didn't like them or didn't read their posts, right?

...Just testing you.



10. Mai Oshinrai
For me Mai belongs here because she made the relatively dull v2 pregame a bit interesting and actually SOTFish. I mean, shit, it's great that pregame contains a lot of good flashback material and sets up relationships between people, but it's boring to write and often boring to read even when you're the most engaged in it. Mai's backstabbing murder scene with Kim was a wonderful prelude to v2 in all its violent, teenage-angsty glory, and for that I owe it to her. As for Kim, I don't owe her shit because she's a worthless NPC.


9. Vesa Turunen
There were very few bruisers in v2, which is good I guess because that makes said few bruisers memorable. He reminded me of a cross between Skwisgaar and a bear in a hockey jersey, which I guess is pretty high on the rad scale. In the end I was kinda disappointed that I didn't get to RP with him; I got a chance really far in (actually to fight and kill him with my flagship) but it didn't work out. Oh well.


8. Felix Travertil
I was RPing with Jotun back when v2 started and couldn't help but notice how neutral his character was. Of course a neutral character in SOTF can still be put in an antagonist position very easily, and Felix functioned well as a character who became a villian completely because of circumstance; just because he was looking out for himself. And shit-damn, his death was cool.


7. Seth Mattlock
I think I just really like that he was about the last (living) person anyone would have expected to show up on the hotel rooftop when he did. Also his death scene let me RP something different with my dumb self-insert besides just kicking ass and chewing burgers.


6. Huy Tran
Had a good time RPing as him, mostly just pleased that his whole suicidal bit didn't define him as a character. Also there was absolutely no planning involved from the beginning so it was interesting to see where things took him.


5. Rob Adams
One half of the v2 comedy duo. Chasing tail and rollin' roaches! Sciph is still convinced that Rob isn't a main character, but he ended up being important. Plus his suicide was rad, so cheer up you fat asshole.


4. Anna Dibenidetti
v2 needed at least one absolute trainwreck. Someone that you, the reader, know you would get fed up with in a matter of minutes and just leave behind or kill yourself. Somehow that makes her cool.


3. Sera Wingfield
Manipulative and cunning and undoubtedly the most subtle villain in v2. That would've been great by itself, but in the end I'm glad the reader gets to see a very vulnerable human side before she bites it.


2. Bryan Calvert
Surprise! Considering I catered entirely to myself in writing my rather slow-witted doppelganger, why wouldn't he be one of my favorites. The only reason he's ranked this high on my list though is because I love how everything turned out. What are the odds? It's as if...nevermind. Just kidding, Laz. Of course, Bryan would have been nothing more than a badass power player if it weren't for...


1. Tori Johnson
I think Tori is my #1 favorite because while Giselle drove me batshit outta-my-head nuts sometimes while we were writing, it always worked out well in the end and was ultimately a memorable writing experience for me. That and everytime she was rolled my heart actually sank.

10. Anna Dibenidetti: The story between her and Huy struck deep with me, because I personally thought it was Mitsuko's best writing, and the character did make you feel for her.

9. Damien Carter-Madison: Points for being the"Umm...what the in the name of yellow fuckin' smurfs" character.

8. Vesa Turunen: Big mean hockey player. I relate to that in real life. I like the way he was wrote and played the game. Pity he had to experience a completely bullshit fight with Mari. I'm sorry Mitsy, but I've never been in a hotel hallway that someone could leap over a 6 foot + Finnish hockey player.

7. Felix Travertil: Jotun started something great with Felix, and I only hope I did him justice. I liked Felix's character from the beginning. He was conflicted, but not to the point where it was stopping him.

6. Rob Adams: As Cyco said above, I don't believe Rob was one of the more popular characters, but I put him in my top 10, just because he was my flagship for V2, and I had fun writing him. I was originally planning on making him exactly a real life friend of the same name, but after meeting up with Matt, then everything else that happened, I realized I had to make him something that was different from anyone I knew in RL.

5. Matthew Drew: Poor bastard. Teamed up with Rob, only one joint, almost got laid about 4 times (each of which would have got him killed), then he finally gets what he wants, and hes dead. Giselle did an excellent job writing with him, and those 2:30am nights on MSN saying, "Ok your turn to post" are memorable.

4. Huy Tran: Same reasons for putting Anna in my Top 10. Huy was written exactly as his real life (yes, Bryan, Giselle and I have a real life friend named Huy (Wee)) counterpart. Huy was a crucial part of V2 in that his character was just trying to do the right thing, and protect someone he grew to love. Sounds like Bryan and Tori, but read it and you'll know how different it was.

3. Tori Johnson: I put Tori here, because Giselle shocked me with how well she could write. A huge amount of emotion and effort was put into Tori, and I believe that she was the second most worked on and developed character through V2.

2. Sera Wingfield: I don't know how to put in words why I liked Sera so much, so I'll just say: High five Megs for an awesome character.

1. Bryan Calvert: Pretty much what everyone else said. Bryan was one of if not the best written character in V2. I know that Bryan (RL) put in a huge amount of time into making sure that he kept true to himself in the actions and mannerisms that his counterpart acted on. For me, Bryan was able to give us a character that killed people, but we couldn't say, "He did that in strict cold blood," or "Damn, it seemed like Bryan enjoyed that kill."

[Grand Moff Hissa]

Your Top Ten (V4 Edition)

The longer-running, more involved sequel.

[+] Your Top Ten Circa V4

Hey, everyone! This came about 'cause James and I were talking about our favorite SOTF characters, some of whom kinda flew under the radar in their initial appearances. That got me curious about who everyone else liked. We initially considered posting in the General Discussion Thread, asking folks' top three, but we figured it'd a. derail the thread and b. not give enough space for people to get into their more obscure favorites.

That gave me the idea of reviving this thread from way back in V2. The setup is basically the same, with a few adjustments I'm making.

Basically, what I'd like is for handlers to list their ten favorite characters from any version of SOTF, up to and including V5 pregame (but NOT including Mini, where I'm making a specific Mini thread of the same sort). It'd also be pretty sweet if you say what about these characters works for you. I'd ask that you not pick your own characters. However, it'd also be cool if everyone, for a bonus eleventh, picked their favorite of their own characters to talk about with the whys and stuff too. That way, we can all be suitably humble and still have the fun of talking about our own stuff.

You can rank your list or not. I don't really care either way. What I'd like to really emphasize, though, is that this is not a place to trash on other handlers for their favs. Everyone's got different tastes, and that's fine. That said, it's totally cool to dislike characters. It's cool to talk about disliking them, too. There's nothing wrong with even politely discussing stuff that didn't do it for you in the General Discussion Thread. This thread, however, is just for lists and talking about stuff you like. Oh, and maybe for suggestions on other cool characters for people to read, based on ones they've enjoyed. That's cool, too.

I'll be getting my list together in the next day or two, but I figured this topic would be a cool way to talk about some great stuff we've read.

A final thing: please, please don't feel bad if your character is not mentioned. SOTF has had 880 characters over the course of its time (counting pregame V5 as of this second, and NOT counting non-V1 terrorists and the like, who ARE okay choices, as in the original thread). That means that you get to pick your favorite 1.14% of the game. That means the percentage you can choose here is lower than the percentage IQ threshold to join MENSA. It's not a slight or anything if you're not named.

Also, preferences change over time, so feel free to post a new list a ways down the line if you find cool new characters you love. This is a thread I won'rt mind seeing revived by new members or whatever.

Well, with that... have at!

My list will be unranked, but I'm going to make this list up as I go. It's no strange fact that I may not have the most time to read SotF, but I try as both a mod and a member to find time to read as much as I can with what time I'm given, so... here we go.

Aaron Hughes, as written by Murderweasel (broootheeeeeer): The first pick on my list probably comes as a surprise to nobody. Toben's Aaron Hughes was up-and-up a manipulative prick who tried to play the game using his allies rather than his own brute force, because he knew those were the only assets he had. That's what struck me the most about Aaron, really; he was a player in the strictest sense of the word, but instead of killing others wantonly like the others did, he played smart and tried his all to make sure that he would be the last one standing at the end of everything. Mr. Hughes was an unlikable bastard that I couldn't help but love.

Cisco Vasquez, as written by Laz: Cisco was, plain and simple, a blast to read. Despite the subject matter being a bunch of high school teenagers being shunted on an island and forced to kill each other in order to survive, I felt like I could read Cisco and not feel guilty laughing. Most of my reading of him may have been done pre-game, but I caught enough of him and his precious Carol Channing LP on the island to know that Laz stuck with the character all the way and found the proper method of having the limey-headed bastard react to the happenings of the island.

Tabi Gweneth, as written by Greg the Anti Viking: I absolutely loved writing alongside Greg and his portrayal of Tabi Gweneth. I feel like she is just about solely responsible for how well Ivan turned out, and that whole story arc really wouldn't have been quite as good without Greg's writing force behind it. From beginning to end, there was nothing I wanted to do more than reach into the story and give this girl a huge hug.

Rosa Fiametta, as written by Namira: Rosa is one of the most well-known characters of V4, but I feel like she's well-known for all the wrong reasons. Most people can only think of her as the caricature of a person that she never was, and was never meant to be, but there was a lot more to the girl than that. In life, she was dealing with a complex set of issues in all the wrong ways, and only felt more trapped by the web of events she had helped create. Her death was both disturbing and incredibly sad, and I'll be the first to defend her death thread, Monsters, to the very end.

Harold Fisher, as written by Blastinus: Oh, Harold. He was another prick and didn't really last all that long, but that just adds more to the list of reasons why I can't help but love him. He had the best chance of stopping the now-infamous Maxwell early on, but his own tendencies towards gaudiness ended up fucking him over. There's just something about a fat guy eating jellybeans when kids are dying all around him that makes me laugh, you know?

Ilario Fiametta III, as written by DetectiveArcher and FacesinBooks: While our newer members probably aren't familiar with this, Ilario was actually written by more than one person. Jerred (Archer) was the guy who apped Ilario and originally played him, but when he could unfortunately no longer be with us, Rosie took on the daunting task of writing the oldest of the Fiametta triplets. I feel as though she performed admirably, writing Ily all the way up to rank two and giving us one of the best conclusions to an act of SotF we've ever seen.

Clio Gabriella, as written by Inky: Before you say anything, I can point out that Clio had some flaws, yeah. Heterochromia alone is enough to give me an aneurysm these days, but... you know what? I really don't care. Clio was one of my favorite killers on the island; honestly, out of the players that everybody usually thinks of first (Maxwell, Reiko, etc.), Clio was my absolute favorite. She dies near the midgame and so you can imagine her as a sort of mid-boss that burned out pretty damn quick, but maybe that's what makes me like her more. She didn't wear out her welcome, her philosophies were clearly broken and she acknowledged this, and she died devoid of the dignity that she never had in the first place... a fitting end for a desperate killer, and I wish it was done more often.

Mia Kuiper, as written by Geno: I suppose there's never been anything I've ever read that was quite like Mia. Except Shakespeare. Boy, did that girl like to quote Shakespeare. Mia may not have been the best character out there or anything, but I legitimately laughed a few times at how witty she could be and how she reacted to the more... uh... whimsical aspects of SotF (excessive murder may hardly seem whimsical, but it's sort of of hilarious in a morbid sense when you try to kill somebody with a plunger). She was an enjoyable and relatively short read, and I would recommend it to anybody. People usually cite Richard Han's death as one of the funniest moments in SotF, but I'd say that's because they didn't read Mia.

Aislyn McCreery, as written by Betaknight: Aislyn was the extension of the most logical extreme when it came to an 'off-player', a term I totally came up with out of my ass just now for somebody who plays the game by its very definition but doesn't really kill enough for us to call her a player. It makes sense that Tre's a Star Trek fan, because Aislyn's about as cold and logical as Spock; friends are great and all, but they weren't more important to her than staying alive. You understood that from Aislyn when you read her. She wasn't completely emotionless like a damn robot, but she actively shoved her emotions out of the way in order to try and survive. I personally believe most actual kids would not try to play the game (indeed, I'm of the opinion an actual game of SotF would end in collar detonation for all), but if somebody DID have the balls to try and play, they'd do it like Aislyn.

Raymond Dawson, as written by Outfoxd: Monsters. That is all. ... Okay, out of courtesy, I want to write a bit more about Ray, but that thread alone carries enough emotion from John's svelte MMA fighter to put him on this list. "My sister" is still one of those lines that can put me on edge, and his brotherly persona to more than a few other characters makes me want to call him the most manliest man V4 had the pleasure of seeing.

That just about covers my top 10, I suppose. If I were to cover that eleventh spot, I'd probably go with...

Dennis Lourvey, as written by MK Kilmarnock: Okay, so I'm massively trollfacing here, but I actually do find a huge kick out of writing the newest (still living) member of the Arthro Taskforce. Being a member of the terrorists alone is enough to make you want to hate the guy on principle, but I try to imagine what it's like to be something of a frazzled techie who's gotten himself into a situation where he bit off way more than he could chew, sorta like a cross between NCIS's McGee and JD from Scrubs. I don't get to write him too much, but when I do, I almost always enjoy it.

And, uh, there you go!

Alright, as a fairly new member to the site, I will probably have missed a TON of characters that are amazing, so this thread will help me out considerably in finding new reading material. However, I have not read enough of v 1-3 to accurately assess them, so this will be my top 10 from v4:


10. Megan Nelson.
Okay, you reacted to this name in one of two ways. Either, you have no idea who Megan Nelson is, or you're currently chuckling in front of the computer. Megan wasn't great because of her characterization, she wasn't great because of her motivation, and she sure as hell wasn't great because of her handler's writing.

For those of you who don't know, Megan was the first character in v4 to be killed because of handler inactivity. Now, most inactivity would be dealt with in boring ways. A detonating collar, suicide, dropping off a cliff, whatever. But not Megan. No no no.

For those of you who haven't read Megan, read her only thread here. Then, proceed to chuckle with the rest of us. Namira (Edit: And Wheeler, for coming up with the idea, apparently) and Kenny the Inactive Bear, I salute the three of you for making me laugh in such a loud and unexpected manner. Danya was right. This was death hilarious.

9. Etain Brennan.
Now, Etain never really had a lot of screen time, on account of good ol' Ilario (who we'll get to in a sec). But Etain's death was not only a very effective way to absolutely devastate Kris, but it was also the most tragic thing I had read in SOTF up to that point.

Maybe I'm a romantic, but the two best friends who are both secretly in love with one another, and then don't get to admit it to one another in time to act...... tragic. Maybe it's because I recognize myself in it?

Not to mention how, in his dying moments, all Etain is thinking of is how horrible it must be for Kris. True love at its finest.

8. Richard Han.

"My mop is the mop that shall pierce the heavens! My mop is my SOUL! It will bring JUSTICE and PEACE to this isle! BELIEVE IT!"

You win this one, gravityyyyyyyyyyy-... *exits thread*
*enters different thread*
-yyyyyyyyyy *SPLAT*

Do I need to say more?
Such a fun read. Such a fun ending. Even his death was a joke.

7. Eve Walker Luther
Eve started off as a pretty fun character to read. Plenty of good humor, and you just couldn't help but to root for her.

Unfortunately, that ended once she ran into good ol' Sarah. Tragic death is tragic.
I know there are purists on the board who believe flashing back to the people at home is a cheesy and manipulative way to make people feel bad for the characters, but I certainly felt the pain when she died a (gruesome) death, all whilst her poor boyfriend at home were watching, and then deciding he would honor her by raising the baby right.

Loved it.

6. Liam Brooks.
Hoooo boy.. Liam, Liam, Liam... You are one sick puppy.

Bloodgarden was one of the most memorable threads of v4, without a doubt. Your constant and gruesome murders, your betrayal of your two best friends and allies, and your... eh... "piece of art"... was truly insane.

Sure, it was a bit over the top. But as you'll see later in my list, I LOVE OVER THE TOP.

It was also a truly tragic ending to the friendship of the three of you. Nathan died by your hand, you did by Jason's hand, and finally Jason felt so numb and broken that he simply swam out into the ocean with no other purpose but to drown.

Tragic indeed.

5. Clio Gabriella
Clio, another one of our brutal, relentless killers. She, like Maxwell Lombardi, was one of the strongest participants early game. I first ran into Clio when reading Maxwell, actually, in their brutal murder (oh, Maxwell, you gentleman, letting Clio get the kill), and then in the infamous sex scene (both shooting the poor girl who walked in on them was pretty cheesy, but utterly hilarious).

Still, while that was how I met Clio, I then went back and read her from the beginning, and there was more than met the eye. I thought Inky did a nice job, and while it was a bit surprising she died as early as she did, it finished her off nicely. Of course, like most characters, there were strengths and weaknesses, but all in all Clio was a very enjoyable read.

4. Naoko Raidon.
Raidon, Raidon, Raidon... You are without a doubt my favorite anti-villain out there. The kills you racked up, the fact that you finally ended Maxwell Lombardi (With a tad bit of help from a couple of other people who both shot and stabbed him beforehand), and how you actually felt remorse for it was great.

Only you could ever stomp on a girls inhaler as she's having an asthma attack, and still make me feel sorry for YOU rather than the girl dying.

Either way, Raidon was a great read, and he amused me to no end. And dear god, does he know how to finish someone or what? I actually felt bad for Maxwell towards the end. Jesus christ. A flashbang to the mouth? You sick bastard xD

3. Maxwell Lombardi
Hoooo boy... I know I'll be taking a lot of flack for this one. Maxwell is one of those characters that you either love, or you hate. There is very little in-between. But before you skewer me and roast me over a fire chanting "THERE ARE BETTER VILLAINS! BLAH BLAH!", just hear me out.

Maxwell was a Kiriyama in his own right, only with a much more sadistic streak. He existed to kill things. As several handlers (and one Anon) puts it on the wiki, Maxwell stopped being a character and became a convenient way for your character to die.

What I disagree with, however, is how these people claim that it is a bad thing. Sure, the rape scene was a tad much. Yes, his death is VERY over the top. But that's what's so great about him. He is an unrepentant, sadistic, over-the-top, insane villain. There is no denying he is a villain. Nobody can claim otherwise.

Maxwell Lombardi was a breath of fresh air in a playing field filled with motivation and angst. He simply enjoyed killing people in the end.

Could he have been a better character? Why, yes. Could Fiori have added more character development? I suppose he could.
But the fact is, Maxwell was the first villain I read when I came to these forums. Maxwell is the reason I am here now. And he was a blast to read, with cheesy villainous monologues and remorseless murder.

2. Ilario Fiametta III
You can probably guess by now that I am a big fan of villains. And I told you we'd be back to him!
Ilario puts an interesting twist to the villainous role. He's remorseless, yes. He's brutal, yes. But he see's himself as the good guy, and even apologizes to his victims. I have not really read enough of Ilario to say more (I intend to read all of him when I actually find enough time.), but he was a successfully written character in the parts that I did read.

Hell, the final conversation he had with Kimberly was the best thing I've read in a LONG, LONG time. His final suicide was a shock, and truly a way to show that he was, in the end, not 100% evil.

1. Aaron Hughes

Just like Ricky, I have to go with Aaron. Holy crap, I have never seen a better case of being a devious, manipulative bastard.

And it was totally unexpected! I mean, look at this:
Dungeons and Dragons, LARPing, physics, chess, online forums relating to roleplaying games

Who would've thought he'd turn into the extremely manipulative villain he became? Let a friend die to martyr him and make the group bond? Check. Let another person "accidentally" kill a person in the group causing problems? Check. Trick your remaining party members to NOT head for the rescue ships, pretend to go and check, and then come back without doing so claiming there was no chance? Check. And then finally, when your LAST, most long lasting, and loyal party member on the island threatens to read all your plans unless she can take command, shoot her right in the chest with the ice cold line "Goodbye, Aileen".

Aaron basically doomed his entire group, without any form of remorse, just to save himself. Sure, he didn't win, but he was a GLORIOUS read, and I loved the fact that he was allowed to blossom into the character that he was. Truly a magnificent bastard of the highest caliber.

I claim no credit for the Inactive Bear. I just wrote the scene, the concept was all Wheeler.

I'll be sure to make a mental note, and an addition to my list of people to salute for said death

Regarding Kenny. Yeah, my ideas are awesome.

Anyways, my Top Ten. No particular order.

1) Bryan Calvert - Version 2 -- Written by Cyco/Cycokiller
- Anyone who has not read Bryan needs to. Seriously, you need to. Reading Bryan from start to finish is like a damn clinic in how to portray a character in SOTF.

2) Eddie Sullivan - Version 3 - Written by DetectiveArcher
- Another clinic in writing put on by the handler. Eddie was one of the best characters in V3, and best characters that we've seen across all versions.

3) Alexis Machina - Version 3 - Written by Crash
- I loved reading Lex. Aaron made her a damn good villain, but entertaining too. I really believe that some of Aaron's strongest writing was with Lex by a mile (or approximately Lex's circumference)

4) Lulu Altaire - Version 3 - Written by Zombiexcreame
- A small part of this is that Lulu was the death that resulted in me winning V3 with Riz. The vast damn majority of this is that Zombie did a great job in creating a rounded character that really stayed true to the portrayal for the entire game.

5) Aaron Hughes - Version 4 - Written by MurderWeasel
- Same reasons everyone else has stated. Seriously.

6) Raymond Dawson - Version 4 - Written by Outfoxd
- Foxd's writing with Ray was compelling, interesting, and made me want to write with him. To really make me want to push to get in threads with you in future versions takes some damn talent.

7) Kimberly Nguyen - Version 4 - Written by MurderWeasel
- Start to finish, excellent read and excellent character. Really looking forward to the epilogue.

8) Neil Sinclair - Version 3 - Written by Theseus
- You think Liz Polanski changed the game and was dynamic? *puts on hipster glasses* Neil Sinclair was doing it before it was cool.

9) Huy Tran - Version 2 - Written by Cyco
- Emotional rollercoaster. I don't like the RL guy Cyco based him on, but the SOTF character was incredible.

10) Adam Dodd - Versions 1 and 3 (except 4) - Written by Korazon
- Even though it takes like 4 hours to get through Adam's first monologue of every thread (yes folks, I've given him crap for it in RL), the writing talent is there, the characterization is there, and hell, it's hard to leave the winner of our first version (yes, screw you Version 0) off of a top 10 List. To use a sports quote, "First ballot Hall of Famer".

---

11) Favourite of my own characters: Steve Digaetano from V3
- Steve was my character that people say I did my best writing with, and looking back on it, I agree. I really enjoyed Steve's arc and the people that I wrote along-side. I accomplished my goals with Steve, and wish I could have taken him a bit further, but alas, the rolls were not friendly. If I had to recommend any of my characters to read start to finish (including the pregame stuff) I would say Steve every single time.

Hoo boy. Fair warning; my knowledge of characters is most extensive with people I've interacted with, so you'll just have to bear with me. The following are in no particular order.

Julian Avery as written by Jonny. This may come as a surprise to some (read: none) of you, but I am just about in love with Julian Avery. I want to bear his children. His sarcastic, fucked-up little children. His entire character arc is just this desperate struggle of the kind of funny guy trying to come to terms with his own morality and the way to live on the island. What gets me about Jonny is that his conclusion is that there really isn't any conclusion--he just keeps trying, even to the end.

Mizore Soryu by storyspolier. I think it's just fantastic that Soryu, Julian, and Raidon ended up together, because they're characters who share the same central struggle--looking for what really matters to them--and coming to radically different answers. Soryu is, as far as I can tell, one of the best pacifists ever written, because she manages to be honest and courageous in spite of avoiding violence.

Garrett Hunter by Hollyquin. This is actually unrelated to my writing RPs with him. Much as I enjoyed the Belle/Garrett interaction, I think Garrett's an interesting character--he just has so much rage. He's never quite redeemed from being an asshole, but then, he doesn't need to be; his nature as an asshole is part of what makes him so enjoyable.

Aaron Hughes by Killervole (BECAUSE THAT'S YOUR REAL NAME). I suspect Aaron is going to make a lot of these lists. It's easy to love Lombardi for being a straight villain because we so rarely get that character type--essential to our creating characters is seeing their thought processes, which tends to make them somewhat sympathetic. Hughes, because he's generally so hands-off, is actually one of the most uniquely hateable villains they are, because he doesn't keep his hands clean so much as force those around him to do his dirty work for him. He manipulates and doesn't face the consequence of his actions; he is, at his core, a cowardly (albeit intelligent) villain, who doesn't even manage to pull off Evil is Cool and instead falls into Manipulative Bastard. He was believably brilliant and I kind of wish Raidon had had a chance to go up against him.

Mr. Kwong by...who? Part of what touched me about Mr. Kwong was the way he was handled with Liz Polanski, but Kwong also stands on his own. Kwong has it worse than most of our characters in some ways because there is at least a sliver of hope for even our worst characters--they might win and escape. Kwong is trapped in what seems to be a literally hopeless situation but he simply will not break and will not lose faith in the students. As far as I can tell, V4 was kind of anomalous sessions, and Kwong was one of those anomalies--an anomaly I found sort of heartbreaking.

Liz Polanski by storyspoiler. As I've said countless times before now, I am just a sucker for everything storyspoiler writes. I'm not sure why exactly that's the case, but I just found Liz to be majorly endearing. I think its the hopelessness of her cause--she's trying to wage a one-woman war against the game because that's the only way she knows how, and she keeps getting her ass kicked as a result, but she just keeps trying. Much one as I had writing Raidon, I think the most exciting thing I wrote was the mass student charge to the Tunnels with the AT breathing down our necks, and that excitement sort of captures Liz's whole story arc--she, like Kwong, does something almost unprecedented and then keeps fighting through all the shit that comes her way.

Maxwell Lombardi by Fioriboy. There are ways in which Lombardi rings a little hollow, and there are ways he plays villain cliches to the hilt. But what makes Lombardi work are those cliches. He abandoned all the angst and internal dilemmas (or even dilemmas of appearances, such as Hughes took up) and became the villain, which was absolutely necessary given that everyone else (with the possible exception of Reiko) was trying their damndest to play anti-villains. Maxwell was not perfect, but he was a simple, no-holds-barred villain, and I think everyone who RPed with him can agree that he was immensely fun to play with/against.

Ethan Kent by Ruggahissy. Just as it was damn near impossible to write villains this time around, it was also damn near impossible to write heroes. Everyone was morally complex, everyone had doubts and fears. And that's fair, that's realistic, but heroes do exist--sometimes we do act altruistically, and sometimes its awesome. Ethan Kent is one of two examples that leaps to my mind. He occupies the same tier of "game anomalies" as Liz Polanski and Mr. Kwong. I liked him. I found him believable. I was sorry to see him go.

Zach Jamis by Ciel. I really regret not RPing with Zach more when I had the chance, because going back and reading him I found I really liked him. Zach had the same way of effortlessly inserting himself into stories that Julian Avery did, but in a much quieter way. And going back and looking at him, the general trend is for Zach to do good--to oppose the killers to the end, to help rescue people, to just try his damndest and do best. Looking back I think Zach might be one of the most underrated characters on the site.

Maxie Dasai by Namira. I haven't read nearly as much of the early versions as I should have, but I read Maxie Dasai's character from beginning to end and I really enjoyed her whole arc. Maxie keeps fighting and never really stops--she actually provided some of the inspiration for when I was constructing Belle's character (although their character arcs are quite different). Maxie was a good read and I just found her generally excellent, so she deserves a place on the list.

Naoko Raidon by myself. I'm sure this comes as a massive surprise to everyone, but I really loved writing Raidon. I think to a certain extent Raidon is my own darker tendencies--I found myself defending his actions from at a certain point as the only logical way to proceed on the island. Villains generally try to justify their decisions in a moral fashion; I really enjoyed writing a character who consciously acted in an immoral way and took no pleasure in it, but was determined to survive. I suspect there's a part of me that would be sorely tempted to do the same, were I placed in the Island. I just think Raidon embodies my own personal fascination with this kind of situation--how do you live when the only way to survive is to compromise who you are as a person?

Awesome replies so far, everyone! I'm still plugging away at my list. Mini alone took like two days to narrow down, 'cause I'm indecisive and there's a ton of great writing on SOTF.

I just wanted to toss in a reminder that, if you want, you can also put down your favorite of your own characters for an eleventh spot, like Ricky did with Lourvey. Actually, mostly I'm just really curious about who each handled liked of their own crew, and why.

Added.

((redacted))

Well, this took a ridiculous amount of thinking. I'm still not really satisfied with what I've got, honestly. Among other things, I feel like the balance is off here. I didn't allow myself to worry about how the characters I picked stacked up in terms of version, style, or defining characteristics, and now I find myself with only two girls on my list. More than that, no matter how hard I tried, I wasn't able to slim down my V1-3 picks, which ended up leaving me with only five slots for V4. Five out of the biggest game SOTF has ever seen is not a lot at all. To be entirely honest, I have about twenty favorite V4 characters. I've changed this list up a few times even in draft form, and no matter what happens, it feels almost like I'm dropping friends off of it (the characters, I mean. When it comes to handlers, I am dropping friends off it. ). So many characters deserve recognition and accolades, and I just have to say once more that I recommend strongly that everyone look into some characters they've neglected to read in the past. Try someone new, and not just a character who kicked it in their first thread back in V2 or something. I think you'll be pleasantly surprised.

One last note: I had, as mentioned, like twenty runners-up. I'm not gonna list 'em, because it doesn't really feel fair to stretch the rules I laid out, no matter how much I want to. Suffice to say, if I've said nice things about your characters and posts, you probably made this really, really tough for me.

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Julian Avery (V4): Jonny's characters are all special. I think there's a very good case to be made, in fact, that Julian is not his best writing. In the end, though, he absolutely deserves a spot on this list, because he was one of the most unique and interesting characters SOTF has had. A large part of what makes Julian fascinating is that he fills an archetype that, in the past, has long been associated with heroism in SOTF. Julian is a player hunter, going after those who succumb to the game and start to kill their classmates. He was, in many ways, a perfect protagonist. He was charming, sarcastic, and courageous in the face of danger.

He was also murdering people. What makes Julian special is that Jonny acknowledged that. Julian stands out among player hunters because his actions are examined in their full, horrifying reality. His sarcasm edges towards taunting. He proves himself willing to compromise his morals in the short term, but unwilling to budge in the long run. The real tragedy of Julian is that he picks a course and sticks to it until the very end, refusing to compromise even as he knows he's dying. One of the most chilling scenes in V4 is when, realizing that he's dying, Julian looks to Alice to continue his mission, but, upon finding out she assisted a killer earlier in the game (without doing the dirty work herself), he chooses to instead enact vigilante "justice" one more time, killing her even as she explains that all she wants is redemption.

Notable Quote: "Oh shit! Oh shit! That's not good at all! It's like all of a sudden you got a lot less time to repent!"

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Bryan Calvert (V2): Bryan Calvert was the first winner of SOTF I read completely. Everyone said he was one of the best characters of all time, and, to be honest, I was pretty skeptical about that before I started reading. I always had this weird feeling that everything before V3 just wasn't very good. I've been proved wrong in a lot of ways since then, but Calvert was what started it all. He's a character who displays tons of attitude and, well, character, without giving big rants or having deep moments of introspection. Unlike so many SOTF characters, he's not an intellectual of any stripe. He's a normal guy, kind of a thug, who gets dragged into the game and finds his purpose and then clings to it. Bryan is a deep character. Cyco doesn't always tell us what he's thinking, but he shows it, picking out little details and leaving hints and letting us just feel what Bryan's feeling.

It also helped that Bryan had a ton of relationships with other characters that paid off big time in game. Wherever he went, whatever he was doing, Calvert was having an impact and shaping characters' stories and lives. His eventual grudge match with Mariavel is excellent on its own, but with the entire background, with the story of him and Mari and Seth and Tori, the whole thing becomes one of the best showdowns of SOTF history.

Notable Quote: "Nothing personal, Mari."

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Danielle Champney (V3): I don't think James is gonna like Danni making an appearance on my list, but that's just too bad. I started out reading SOTF with the wonderful James Brown, and encountered Danni when she crossed their path. At first, I didn't really quite know what to make of her. What I'd read of V3 had been pretty awesome, but a lot of it had involved crazy acid hallucinations and bitter recriminations and gunfire, and into all of that waltzed this girl who was just kinda normal. I think, in the end, that's one of Danni's biggest strengths as a character. She kept true to herself, and was awesome to read about even though she wasn't in any way an action character. James is a great writer, Danni is a super solid read.

For bonus fun, Danni includes a lot of funny elements. James is good at picking up on trends and kind of making light of them. When I first read Danni, the insertion of terrible Spice Girls lyrics into her a couple of her posts were baffling. Now, understanding what a "songpost" is, those same posts are totally hilarious (moreso because they are justified to a far greater extent than many unironic songposts).

To top it all off Danni had an amazing death scene (whatever James says). She was the first character I cared about who I saw get rolled, and I kept hoping somebody'd save her, and then the death came and it just tore me up. I was this close to voting in the BDA contest to gush about it, but in the end I didn't 'cause I hadn't read all the others and didn't want to break the rules. I do remember thinking, in the aftermath of reading Trish, James, and Danni, "Man, if this is the standard this site sticks to, I might as well give up now." A couple hours of angst later, though, I became inspired to instead try my hardest. This (along with a bunch of the other folks on this list) is the bar I still often feel like I'm straining to reach.

Notable Quote: "If you're watching me die right now, I hope you rot in hell. I hope you experience a fraction of the pain and fear my classmates and I have."

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Hawley Faust (V1): I was a little leery of putting Hawley on here, because to be completely honest, unlike the others on this list, I haven't read his entire story. After V4's Endgame wrapped, I went back and read through some older characters, including Adam Dodd's V1 run in its entirety (and I agree with Dan. Dodd's totally worth a read). While I enjoyed most of it, one character stole the show again and again. I'm not sure how much most handlers know about Hawley these days. When I joined, he was still a big deal. He scored the first ever RPed in-game kill of SOTF. In fact, at the start, Hawley came off as a psychotic player, taking his revenge on those who had tormented him in school. Still, he joined up with Dodd and another friend, and they began travelling together, in an uneasy alliance.

What followed was some of the best character development I've ever seen, as Hawley allowed himself to learn to trust other people and opened up to them. It wasn't always easy; at several points he faced consequences for his initial actions. He had to kill people who attacked him for his first killing, and he relapsed into paranoia, nearly turning against his team. Throughout it all, though, Hawley displayed extraordinary depth of character and a fascinating amount of detail. His death was extremely effective, and even though I knew how it was going to go, even though V1 had been wrapped up years before I joined the site, I still found myself wishing that somehow things would turn out differently, that somehow he'd make it.

Notable Quote: "I don't want to be alone here, I don't want to be alone again… I promise to never, ever do anything to hurt any of you… I'd rather die than ever do that again."

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Erik Laurin (V4): Erik is unusual, in that he is one of my favorite characters of all time despite having a fairly low-key time on the island. A large part of that, I think, comes from the fact that the island is only one part of Erik's story. V4 was the most extensively pregamed version of all time, something that's really unlikely to change. There was a lot of time for handlers to develop and come to love kids in normal life. Erik is clearly a labor of love. He's an incredibly deep character in ways that aren't immediately apparent. Really, what's amazing about Erik is that he's one of the most genuinely good people who ended up on the island. He's not worried about ideals or escape or his own survival. What he spends his time thinking and caring about are his friends and his family back home. He worries for everyone else, but he's not perfect or selfless. Kinda like Danni, Erik's just a guy who had the awful luck to end up in a horrible situation.

Erik also faced bad luck in the game, again and again. He lost his initial group, only to stumble into his boyfriend. He stayed with that group for a while, until he was suddenly left behind, soon getting separated from everyone else and wandering the island alone, barely interacting with a single soul for most of his stay, managing even to miss the rescue boats. By the time Erik did reconnect, the game was winding down, and it was a horribly short time before he was shot and killed, never able to complete his goodbyes. Erik's death is one of the single saddest things I've ever read. It nearly made me cry on each of the four or five occasions on which I read it. Rose is an amazing writer, and all of her characters are awesome and deserving of praise/reading. Erik blew me away in so, so many ways, though.

Notable Quote: "Lots of crazy going around these days. Kinda makes you wonder if you'd even notice, y'know? Like if I slipped off the deep end, how the hell would I know?"

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Nick LeMonde (V4): Where to start when talking about Nick? Trying to think of my favorite thing about him, I find myself realizing that Nick is not a character who merely fills a single role well. No, Nick manages to be many things—a player, a member of a romantic story, a kind person, a schemer—and he manages to fill each role better than many characters who were devoted to the same niche in an exclusive fashion. Nick is a character who feels real, and not just because Rugga based him on someone she knows. Nick makes mistakes, and he makes rash choices. He's selfish a lot of the time, entering into a player alliance and killing to improve his own chances. He cares deeply about people, but not in quite the same way as most other characters. For all that, his feelings are no less real.

Nick also is involved in some truly amazing scenes. His romance with Jessica, and the eventual end of their plotline together, is simultaneously touching and somewhat horrifying. By the time Nick chooses to seek redemption, I, at least feel that he's already earned it. Watching the rest of his stay, watching him struggle and eventually die, is almost painful. Rugga also manages to show Nick's family and make me care about what happens, a lot. Nick is, plain and simple, a really high quality character.

Notable Quote: "We could have had it all."

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R.J. Lowe (V4): R.J. was a character who struck me with his quality from the very start. While he only arrived on the pregame scene near the end, he still caught my attention in a positive way. Little did I know that things were only headed upwards from there. On the island, R.J. was probably one of the few characters who came close to being an oldschool SOTF hero. He got his hands dirty when he had to, he had someone he wanted to protect, and he went out of his way to do the right thing to the extent that he could. R.J. was more than that, though. I can't quite explain it, but he was a presence, in the game and on the island. A lot of that's just down to Stark's excellent writing, I think. I can remember more about R.J. trying to teach Mary-Ann how to shoot, or his ordeals hunting a deer, than I can about a lot of death scenes. He's just that gripping.

R.J. had some odd things about his run, including the end of it, but I think that just added to his charm. I spend a lot of time as a mod talking about what sort of characters we want. Words that are often thrown around include "normal" and "realistic", which are often treated as synonyms. R.J. proves that nothing could be further from the truth. He's brilliantly realistic from the start, but I don't think there's a single normal thing about him, and I say thank goodness for that.

My verdict: Excellent character. Would Hero again.

Notable Quote: So, yeah, I forgot R.J. couldn't speak when I put this section into my little writeups. I'm just owning up to that rather than going through and finding something he wrote or something like that. I guess it just goes to show that R.J. was amazing and memorable for who he was, not for his disability. Anyways, R.J. communicates more without words than the vast majority of characters who speak. I'm linking to his first post, because he deserves a total read-through.

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Trish McCarroll (V3): Trish was one of the first characters I encountered on SOTF, again through following James Brown. The entire James/Danni/Trish trio was amazingly portrayed, constantly touching, realistic, and human. In some ways, Trish was the one who kept it all together. She was the leader, the responsible one. She also had quite the temper and attitude. Trish was a very, very cool character because she was always so certainly herself. She had moments of doubt, of weakness, of triumph, and I was hooked, reading each and wanting to see what happened next. Aaron's great at letting readers inhabit his characters, letting them watch along with Trish as James dies. The wait to find out Trish's fate was almost unbearable. Her death is one of the best I've read, full of emotion and meaning. I also couldn't help feeling awful for her, making it so close to going home.

I guess that's one of Trish's biggest strengths. I found myself completely invested in her and her friends and her fate. Great writing and a great character really came together to make Trish's story one of the most exciting and compelling of SOTF. Trish was a great starting point for me, and I think she'd be an excellent starting point for just about anyone, as throughout it almost all the highlights of what SOTF can be are hit.

Notable Quote: "What happens if...we're the only ones left?"

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Lenny Priestly (V3): I'm sure this surprises absolutely nobody who I've ever talked to even in passing about villains or V3, but Lenny Priestly is one of my favorite characters of all time. At a glance, Lenny hits just about everything that tends to make me glance askance at a character, but somehow it all just works. Lenny's a killer, a sadist, and a villain. He's also, in his own way, a highly sympathetic character. Everything he does feels perfectly natural based on everything else he's done in the game. Not everything is clear at the start, but as Lenny continues on, it becomes more and more obvious that he is a lost person. He's been thrown into a horrible situation, and he's holding himself together the only way he can: by taking control of it.

Lenny is a fascinating character to me, because one of his first moments in the game is him declaring that he will not be the winner. Lenny decides that he's going to die, and he never sways from that conviction. I believe that it's a lot of what keeps him going. If there's no hope for himself, well, anything that happens to him doesn't really matter. Lenny is also a study in changes in psyche. At first, he's convinced that he's going to get his sister out alive. As time passes, he uses her to justify atrocities, and then, after her death, he keeps right on going, throwing himself into a self-destructive spiral until he's able to find someone else—one of his former opponents, no less—to fill a role similar to hers.

Lenny was one of SOTF's longest-lived characters, traversing most of the island and encountering a whole lot of big names. He has great scenes throughout. Favorites include the source of his quote below, his battles on the beach shortly prior to Endgame, his showdown and subsequent shout-off with Bobby Jacks, and, of course, his finale. Lenny is a character well worth the time to read.

Notable Quote: "James, you are playing hero by stepping in front of Shameeca. Now, I wonder, Shameeca, how far would you go to help out James? Let's make a deal. I bet that if I was to take James hostage right now and leave, you wouldn't track us down and take him back. I'll even give you til the morning announcements to get to us. He put his life on the line stepping in front of you, but are you willing to put your life on the line to help him out? If you don't take him back by the morning announcements, I'll kill him."

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Nick Reid (V4): Nick's an interesting character. That statement sells him way, way short, but it's as good a place to start as any. Nick was one of V4's odder quasi-players, coupling a desire to survive and return home with crushing guilt and erratic, often self-destructive behavior. Nick wanted to get out but was smart enough to realize that killing everyone personally wasn't at the way to do it. He was also unlucky and impulsive enough that he killed a good number of people anyways. One of Nick's defining traits was his ability to alienate almost anyone in almost any situation. He clashed with the likes of Maxwell Lombardi and Ivan Kuznetsov and walked (limped, rather) away. Nick was a solid character from the very beginning, something that honestly took me quite by surprise, given that he had not actually been in pregame (except for the one thread that comes up every time Nick gets discussed, and it doesn't count).

Nick was a fascinating read, due to both his excellent characterization and story and due to the fact that he really wasn't like any other character in SOTF. Nick was a decent person who made some bad choices and followed them up with worse choices and almost stumbled into playing. When he finally pulled himself together enough to do something else, he made one little mistake and it exploded into a situation that got several people, including him, killed. Still, I can't say I felt anything but sympathetically towards Nick during his entire run in the game. I was cheering for him to last longer even as I saw from his very choices and personality that it probably wasn't gonna happen.

Notable Quote: "Well. I'm a reasonable guy. Willing to talk things out. Given the chance, of course. And, well, I'll put it like this: I can run forty feet or whatever faster than you can reload. That's just something to think about."

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Phew. That took, like, all afternoon. Whoops.

Since I asked everyone else to do it, I'm gonna go ahead and pick a favorite of mine, I suppose. I guess, at the moment, it's Kimberly Nguyen (V4): I'm not super decisive on this one, honestly, but the reason I'm picking Kimberly is that she's the character who most exceeded my expectations. I'm sure everyone is sick to death of the "Kimberly was my fodder and I almost killed her unrolled Day One" story by now. Basically, she was the character I created who was the most outside my comfort zone. I got to play with some themes and issues I really like with her, and she kept getting into situations I had no idea how to deal with. Just about everything about writing her was this huge crazy adventure and I never knew what was coming next. I got to work with so many fantastic handlers. The reason I'm picking Kimberly is basically that I expected almost nothing and I ended up having a really fantastic time, and that's something I hope I'll always look back on fondly. I'm not 100% done writing with her yet, though, so it feels kinda awkward picking her, but, eh, whatever.

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And that's it. Wow. That was quite a project. For the record, the quotes are just ones that struck me as cool and good for the characters. I think I'll do an updated list sometime later, 'cause my opinions change day by day, and honestly I left out a whole bunch of characters I love. There are some handlers whose entire rosters I love who I couldn't squeeze in (♥ you and your writing, Ricky!), and that makes me sad. Perhaps when I've read more V1-3 I'll cheat in good conscience and do a per-version list or something. Maybe that needs its own thread. I dunno. I've been working on this on and off for seven hours. I'm just posting the thing and calling it an evening.

7) Kimberly Nguyen - Version 4 - Written by MurderWeasel
- Start to finish, excellent read and excellent character. Really looking forward to the epilogue.

Epilogue!? THERE IS AN EPILOGUE COMING!? :O

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Whoa, could've sworn I replied to this. ><

Yep, there's an epilogue! It's coming together (kinda slowly), but will hopefully be done before long at all here.

Great idea. Ah this is gonna be hard...

1) Bryan Calvert- No question in my mind. Badass, entertaining to read, and fucking well written as shit. Bryan was the best writer on this site, and Bryans his best character- funny, inspiring, moving, badass, but most of all, he seemed exactly like a living, breathing person.

2) Eddie Sullivan- Detective Archer was a damn good writer, and he showed this completely with Eddie. Eddie is an excellent read, and personified the idea of the everyman hero. He was an amazing charactrr to read, and everyone knows someone who has a little bit of Eddie in him.

3) Adam Dodd- Give Dodd all the crap you want for writing too much, but it just shows you how much effort he puts into his posts. It shows too, with Dodd having an engrossing, entertaining character arc that took V1 to a whole new level. Dodd's great writing makes V1 an awesome read, and some would argue is responsible for SotF blowing up the way it did. Hes an SoTF icon, and for good reason.

4) Aaron Hughes- You knew hed be in here somewhere. Despite an abundance of villains in V3, there were few that stood out as in previous versions. Some feared, partly because of the focus on realism, there wouldnt be any good villains. KillerVole answered with a tour de force in the form of Hughes. He was entertaining, malicious, well written and the classic villain everyone loves to hate. And he is, at least in this handlers mind, the finest villain SoTF has had.

5) Hawley Faust- Want a supporting character done expertly? Want a death scene done right? Read Hawley. Well written, and shows that a character can become great without hogging the spotlight.

6) Ilario Fiametta- First of all its Rose. You know shes gonna have a character on the list, or its wrong. She took a character that had been handled by an amazing writer, and did the impossible- made him even better. Ilario is amazing, and I tip my hat to Rose for some excellent work.

7) Neil Sinclair- This may be the first time a characters role in his respective version puts him on the list. At a time where every handler seemed focused on ULTRA GRIM ULTRA REALISTIC characters, Theseus wrote Meil, a true hero. He was well written, and he was a fresh breath of air. Plus him killing Blood Boy was awesome.

8) Franco Sebberts- Franco was the Hughes before Hughes existed. The master manipulator, Franco was the best villain of V2, and would have provided an excellent adversary to Calvert. He is often overlooked as he was in VW and was neither in Endgame nor had a high kill count, but he is a real diamond in the rough.

9) Cody Jenson- You want the insane killer done right? Look at Cody Jenson. After the death of Jacob Starr, Dodd needed a villain to make him into a true hero. The despicable Cody filled this role excellently, and becomes a great read as you read him revolted by his actions, waiting for him to meet his proper fate. Without him, Dodd doesnt reacg nearly the success he did, either.

10) Danya- Call me a cheater if you want, Danya is an icon. He is SoTF, and has been written by some of the best writers on the site. He is a dick, but we all know we love him, and SoTF would not have been nearly as good without him.

Ya'll want to necro this with V5 additions?

Ya'll want to necro this with V5 additions?

http://s10.zetaboards.com/SOTF_V2/topic/7529532/1/#new

That said, I'd love to see overall Top Tens updated too. The threads do have somewhat different aims (though for some folks the overlap may be nearly total if they've not read widely beyond V5).

Look, it's not my fault my every action is woefully ignorant and derivative, or that VoltTurtle is always better than me.

[Grand Moff Hissa]

Your V5 Top Ten

A V5-era revival of the Top Ten concept, specifically aimed at V5 characters.

[+] Your V5 Top Ten

Hey there everyone! So with the conclusion of V5 (minus the epilogue) I thought it would be a great idea to create a top ten thread where everyone can share their obscure/not-so-obscure favorites from all of V5, similar to/inspired by this thread that Toben made way back in 2012 (that thread itself being inspired by a thread in V2).

Basically, it'd be cool if handlers listed their ten favorite characters from version five of SOTF, perhaps including some words on why you like those characters and what they did right. For the sake of not character pimping, no picking your own characters (gotta keep everyone a bit humble). However! Similar to what Toben did in the "Your Top Ten" thread, it'd be really cool if everyone picked their favorite of their own characters to talk about and what worked/didn't work.

I'll be getting my own list together later today, and as a final word (to quote Toben):

You can rank your list or not. I don't really care either way. What I'd like to really emphasize, though, is that this is not a place to trash on other handlers for their favs. Everyone's got different tastes, and that's fine. That said, it's totally cool to dislike characters. It's cool to talk about disliking them, too. There's nothing wrong with even politely discussing stuff that didn't do it for you in the General Discussion Thread. This thread, however, is just for lists and talking about stuff you like. Oh, and maybe for suggestions on other cool characters for people to read, based on ones they've enjoyed. That's cool, too.

A final thing: please, please don't feel bad if your character is not mentioned. SOTF has had 880 characters over the course of its time (counting pregame V5 as of this second, and NOT counting non-V1 terrorists and the like, who ARE okay choices, as in the original thread). That means that you get to pick your favorite 1.14% of the game. That means the percentage you can choose here is lower than the percentage IQ threshold to join MENSA. It's not a slight or anything if you're not named.

So with that, go at it! Happy conversing.

I like this! A few of my favorites, in no particular order:

1-Mara Montalvo
It feels cheap, and I know Vicky won't appreciate it, but it must be said. Mara was consistently one of my favorite V5 characters. She was interesting, tragic, sympathetic and detestable all at once. I think her greatest asset was that, while she wasn't always a good person, you understood what she did and why, and she was very relatable in that, when bad things happened, you felt bad for her even if she wasn't very nice. I liked Mara a lot.

2-Casey Malkovitch
Some of you may not recall what Casey did. That's because Casey was a very subdued story. She never ran into a big group or did anything super crazy. But Casey had, I think, a really strong voice. She was a really interesting character to read, funny and touching and sad. Her death by danger zone was really excellent and if you want a low key story that still manages to be really good I highly recommend Casey.

3-Sara Corlett
Turtle wrote two really solid characters in V5. Maddie is excellent, but I thought I ought to give Sara a word. She's a really nice, short character, who clings to Sean's pirate fantasy and enables him so she can feel secure herself. She's not perfect, but I think Sara was a really strong character who got overshadowed by her more famous handler-sister.

4-Summer Simms
Summer is interesting because she tells a very familiar story, but in such a new and fun way and with such a good grasp of all the things in it that she's become wildly popular. She dies fairly early, but in that short time Summer has a really rich and complete arc, and I think she's very well-handled throughout.

5-Alda Abbate
Alda was a case of an adoption, but I think she worked out really well for it. She manages to tone down a lot of the issues she previously had, and I think she’s handled quite well in that regard. She’s interesting, and she has a lot of stuff that worked well for her, with a distinctive voice and a cohesive story.

6-Bella Strong
Mirabella fell out of favor a bit as she went later and later into the game, which I think is a shame because she was probably one of the best characters up to that point. She might not have been as strong post-snap, but I think she still does very well overall, and is a really good example of a well-written story.

7-Hansel Williams
Most kills in any single version. Most threads. Best smile. There’s a lot than can be said for Hansel, and most of it is good. He’s well-written, interesting, layered, complex and a really good read overall. Hansel’s a contender for one of the best characters in all of V5, and is just a really nice (if long) read.

8-Michelle Wexler
Michelle was a lot of fun to write with and a lot of fun to read. She was sympathetic, likeable and tragic, and it was a shame she didn’t last long. I enjoyed working with Rugga for a lot, and Michelle was a really nice character in my opinion.

9-KK Konipaski
KK was a pretty strong villain, which is already hard to do. The fact that she manages to be calculating and methodical, while avoiding coming across as a flat character, is a testament to her writing. She sets a plan, sticks to it, and rides almost to the end, which is a nice setup for a villain.
nerf Katarina 10/1 op
10-Madeline Wilcox
Maddie was the second of the dynamic TurtleTyrant duo, and was really strong character who managed to be sympathetic without being forcefully tragic. She was pragmatic, but not unlikeable, and I really enjoyed working with her and reading her.

11 (Of my own characters)-Gwen O’Connor
I’m not really thrilled with any of my V5 stuff, but I think Gwen was my best. I liked writing with her and had the opportunity to work with some great people and characters. Special props to Sansa, Rugga and Bro for being fun to work with!

Said I would do this later today and SURPRISE here I am at 10:00 EST. Aren't I great?

In any case, here's my top ten for V5. Since numbering everyone and deciding on my outright favorite would be too difficult, I have avoided doing so.

In no particular order, my V5 top ten:

Joe Carrasco

Medic did a fantastic job writing a character that not only feels realistic and empathetic, but also retains a bit of realism with the injuries he suffers from over the course of his stay on the V5 island. A really great read and highly recommended for anyone who didn't already read him (and that's all that need be said).

Katarina Konipaski

I'll be up front with this one: I absolutely adored Rattle's prose with Katarina. It's a big reason why she's on this list. And while she's not my absolute favorite and she does have her issues, I fully recommend reading her for a decent idea on how to write a villain who's dark but manages to retain a bit of sympathy the whole way through, and a good example of fantastic prose.

Michael Mitchellson

Michael, despite the dark overtones later in his story, managed to remain funny all throughout the course of V5, even if some things were a bit hit or miss. Major props to dmboogie for letting Michael be funny while still being a complex character rather than just one-note comic relief. Definitely recommended as an example of how to do humor right in SOTF.

Michelle Wexler

I'll admit that I am an Island Jesus fan. I like Michelle the best out of Rugga's three characters, and I stand by that even now that Mara has won V5. Michelle was very sympathetic and I could really understand her motivations. Additionally, her death punched me right in the gut. RIGHT IN THERE. Easily one of my favorite deaths in V5. Even if you don't want to read Michelle entirely (I do recommend that you do) then please read her death. It'll make you sad on the inside.

Mirabella Strong

Bella was an great example of good character development over the course of the game. While her writing/story during the time in which she was in the escape group was admittedly weak, her story (and development) after the fact developed her into an absolute psycho and it was entirely believable! While the moment she snapped itself left something to be desired, the aftermath of her snap was fantastic and I fully recommend her to be read.

Sean Mulcahy

Somewhat biased here since Sara spent the entirety of her time on the island with Sean, but I absolutely loved working with MKK and adored Sean for not only being well written but also absolutely adorable (before he went crazy at least). After his big snap he loses... something that I can't quite put my finger on, admittedly, but the latter half of his story is still good and I still definitely recommend reading him.

Hansel Williams

I'll be the first to say I didn't like Hansel as much as a lot of people did, but that's not to say he's a bad or even mediocre character by any means. He's a well written, realistic villain with absolutely fantastic fight scenes (very punchy and visceral) and good prose when he's alone and thinking to himself. Naft did a great job and as such I recommend him for being a good read.

Amaranta Montalvo

While Mara isn't my favorite of Rugga's three kids, she's certainly one of my favorites for V5 proper. Her prose is good, her story covers so many different facets, and her development is believable and really well written. I really didn't have any complaints with Mara, and I'm glad that she won V5. Rugga (and Mara) deserved it.

Rutherford Rogers Jr.

Again, a bit biased here too since Maddie spent so much time with RJ, but I loved Persy's writing with him. RJ was a very believable, empathetic, and realistic character. He had his issues (his death especially left something to be desired) but he's definitely someone I would recommend to read.

Steven Salazar

Despite dying fairly early compared to the rest of the picks on my list here, I really enjoyed reading Toben's writing with Steven and the characterization that went along with it. His death scene was also very good, easily one of my favorites. A very nice, recommended read.

---

And for my own character: Madeline Wilcox

Maddie is probably the more famous of my two characters in V5 by a good margin (she did make it to the final ten after all). As for what worked and didn't... Maddie had a lot of ups and downs. She had a somewhat rough start, presumably due to my newishness as a writer but also my lack of a real feel for her as a character. She had a major jump in quality after she met up with and started hanging out around RJ, especially during the quiet scenes where it was just the two of them talking. I had trouble keeping steam with her after RJ's death, she seemingly just started wandering around without much purpose just after that. It wasn't until There are Some Things... that she gained a bit of steam back, and got a major boost for her death scene because I poured my heart and soul (and a lot of my nihilistic, depressing thoughts I've had on the edge of suicide) into it. All in all, I wish I could do some things over, but I'm satisfied with where she ended up and I hope I can outclass her in V6 with my two... projects. Ehehehehe.

Anyway, sorta short on my explanations (outside of my Maddie paragraph, that all just sorta flowed out) but I wanted to actually get this finished today instead of just forgetting about it. There you guys go!

I kinda want to wait until I have finished reading V5 fully. But I'm impatient. So my list will be probably incomplete because of the fact that I have not read every character (yet!) and also because I'm not allowed to talk about some charas. I ordered them through the numbers. Warning, I suck at describing stuff.

B003 - Matt Vartoogian
I really liked Matt. From the beginning where he was in Jesse's group, through the time where he was in Garrett's group, till he was in an interesting partnership with Finn. Sure, he wasn't BRO's character with the most action or so, but he was still very cool to read for me. Since his first post he had a solid, logical plan. And he probably had the longest build-up for the execution. But I was happy when that happened, the grande finale, during the final ten.

B005 - Cody Patton
Cody felt like a strong character to me. And he was a memorable one, for sure! When I first read his posts, I was really interested in him, trying to read the rest of his story. And not only his personality and voice was fascinating, but also the characters he interacted with. His story also had a fitting end.

G005 - Maddie Wilcox
There's so much I liked about Maddie, and I'm happy that she made it that far. Like Matt, she had a plan (or rather rules), and I liked how she changed the plan for somebody. Actually, RJ was probably one of my first V5 characters I read and followed. And the Maddie/RJ pair was amazing. And when I started to read Maddie, I also loved her first scenes with Nina and the betrayal and stuff. So yeah, if you haven't read V5 yet, I'd totally recommend her!

G006 - Rosemary Michaels
Ah, Rosemary's probably one of my favourites of V5! I really liked her island showing, how she took over Garrett's group and tried to escape. I think she had a pretty strong voice, her scenes were entertaining to read, sometimes made me muse. Also, her "relationship" with second-biggest killer KK was cool to read. Plus points for the awesome thread titles.

G010 - Iselle Ovalle-Vandermeer
I wasn't sure whether I should put the Goon Squad or the Softball girls on the list. But yeah, I really liked the group which had a pretty nice to read acts. Iselle stood out for me, because she felt super strong. Her kill of Sven was also probably one of my favourite day 1 deaths as well.

B014 - Joachim Lovelace
Oh man, Joachim. I loved him from the start to the finish. Pre and Post adoption. Both Bik and Wes wrote really awesome prose, it made me smile, it kept me thrilled. The concept of his was also awesome. The duo of him and Jaq and the scenes with her very probably one of the bests of early-V5 (the robbing scene stood out for me...and well, the kills as well. And the oneshot. An-). Their team up was one of the best team players I've ever seen. Their threads were always interesting to read. The ideas Bik and Nuggets had were creative. But that was just the beginning. There was the whole Paris partnership, which was even more interesting to read! And yeah, I've already mentioned the riddle scene with Rosemary. And the whole adoption thingy went smoothly, I really liked that his story continued that way. The final scene with Paris and Ami, was also a wonderful thing to read. 10/10 would read it again.

G021 - Summer Simms
She's probably the most popular V5 character. She's recommended to people. She's associated with V5. V5's associated with her. And I like her as well. Mimi's an awesome writer. If you ever want a V5 read recommendation, you cannot avoid Summer. From the partnership with Baxter, through the most popular V5 scene to the epic Grenade scene. A truly fullfilled arc.

B024 - Francis St. Ledger
I really liked his arc with Takeshi, Bella, Juhan and Megan. It was a short one, yes, but a powerful one. The group itself is totally worth following. Francis is an excellent early-V5 character. There's nothing else I could say, I guess. I'm satisfied.

B044 - Travis Webster
Travis is a personal favourite of mine, so don't hit me. I really liked to read Travis. Yes, he's comic villainous, sometimes silly, but he's a damn fun read. He feels like a throwback to old version, and I think it was intentional (when I read the Top 10 characters thread of Toben), so I guess he succeeded. And he still has a super strong character, with a good amount of depth, while being entertaining. His relationships are cool as well. His friendship with Joe was also very awesome. His pregame was fun to read and I love his whistling. Then there also was his meanwhile, which is a pretty memorable one. His first thread with Naomi was also very memorable. Also the rivality with Tyler was pretty well executed. And I loved the fight scene he had with Hansel, Tyler, Virgil and James. His other fight scenes were also fun to read as well as his kills. I wish he had died another way, but even his death was well executed. Travis is a character that brought diversity in a cool way to V5.

B076 - Hansel Williams
Hansel is a legendary character. And also an SOTF-historical one. He'll be remembered as the V5 character. Naft is a talented writer, I have no doubt about that now. You can see it in Wild Childs. You can read it in Hansel. And probably in other characters he has written or will write. And I'm glad he did the V6 challenges, so we can all develop our writing.

So, I was being skeptical about Hansel, because he was a cowboy who had an odd name. But he was still one of the best V5 characters I've read. His thoughts are awesome, the narrative is good prose. His whole island plot was reading-worthy.

And that's probably because of the characters he interacted with, too. The first one he met on the island was Theodore Fletcher, the biggest early-game villain, who was an super interesting concept as well. And my fave V5 thread was probably this one. It was a very good thread. These are V5 threads I'd recommend to read (oh, and probably also Endgame).

And following his story would be definitely worth it. The partnership with Andi. His scenes with Michael. That scene with Garrett. Or the ones with Mara. Or with KK. And the Travis and Tyler fight scene and- I really cannot list all of the good scenes, he was in 34 fucking threads on the island.

He killed lots of characters, lots of good ones. And he also has the most kills in SOTF. And I loved each of them. Not only because the well-executed fight scenes, but also because each of the characters he killed were characters I liked to read as well. No cannon fodder. All of them are really cool characters that you might wanna check out (sorry, not gonna link them all).

A splendid, unique villain. He'll be remembered in V9, just like Lenny, Bobby and Aaron might be remembered.

As for my own V5 characters, I'd choos-

Done with post. Finally done.

I am going to post here soon, but firefox borked on me the last time I tried this, so I'm making this as a reminder. Also, it helps the visibility.

Soon being before the end of the month. Will try to do this in order, from great to best.

10. Kam So'oialo

What, I heroed her for a reason, after all. I'm a sucker for a good love story, and I mean that in a lot of ways. Good love. Love has always been kind've messy, not exactly something that has been seen as a good thing in SOTF. V5 was just a bunch of kids who were unloved and in turn became unlovable (IC-ly), but Kam was in love with someone already. She made no qualms about needing to love everybody, or that love had no real meaning. Just one person, and that was enough for me. I think, at the time of heroing her, in hindsight, it was much more for what she did rather than what she could do after her motivation was gone.

9. Katarina Konipaski

Rattle makes pretty sentences.

Seriously, if you just like good prose, KK is well worth the read for that alone. Introspective as she is, it might seem a lot to plow through, and she is very intimidating even for someone who gobbles this stuff up. But even then, if you decide to give it a go, I think you'll find it worthwhile to see word weaving in action.

8. Michael Mitchellson

I feel like most who know Michael already know what I'm gonna say. He's hilarious. That's over and done with. But, I think I want to focus on another aspect over - the long con. To play a disability that cuts off a major sense, and to play it well, is something that I think deserves a lot of attention, because that's what's needed to play it off right in the first place. To incorporate into your Arc is another thing entirely, and I think it was well worth the wait.

7. Maddie Wilcox

Sometimes, pretty words aren't needed to describe an ugly world. What Maddie loses in prose is made up for in just making us clearly understand the problems. The problems of the game, her life, just everything. It'd dark, it's depressing, and it touches on some real world issues and emotions other writers would have trouble not dressing up a bit, yet still managing to stay out of the "gross-out" territory. That deserves recognition.

6. Amaranta Montalvo

For a long, long, long time, Mara was the second chair to one of Rugga's other kids Paris, and beyond just winning the entire version, I feel that funnily plays into one of Mara's themes. Always had to be superior, somehow, someway, and yet despite coming out on top, she hasn't got a damn thing to show for it besides the air she breathes. That's awesome. I feel she makes a very good winner, and was who I was hoping to win at the end, and I'm just chipper that it happened exactly like that.

5. Hansel Williams

Now, I just said I was hoping Mara would end up as the winner of V5, and I mean that. But, Hansel may have not served well as a winner, in my POV, but he stands among the best as a character. Just looking at a dramatic standpoint, Hansel might've been downright the most impacting person on the island, and that's not easy. Just by going to his wiki page, you can see that the journey was a laborious one, and that's the understatement of the century. It one's worth watching of a man turned into a boy, not wanting to live, but just too scared to die.

4. Garrett Wilde

Doc needs to accept that Garret's a good character. I'm gonna go highlander on his ass one day till he admits it. But anyway, Garret's interesting because he is so immersed into the island culture. From reading the guide, to creating his own sets of rules and ideals, I don't think I saw anyone else play with the setting as well as he did. He probably has the most thematically perfect ending of the version, and has my personal favorite Meanwhile... post. Excellent.

3. Ian Williams

I just wanted him to be happy.

Out of anything, or anybody, I wanted him to be happy at the end.

I was denied, and I knew I would be.

2. Joachim Lovelace

He's the mook, the goon, the henchman...an archetype not explored in depth in SOTF. That alone attracted me to him, on top of just being weird. Joachim likes being controlled, and gives into orders easily. And it's not because he's scared or weak minded, he just wants things...tidy. You never get this sense he's being tricked or taken advantage of, but he is willing to play it as such, so it's just really fascinating. Joachim was just kind of an oddball who I could make sense out of, plus with some well done creative moments, ended up in my favorites.

1. Rosemary Micheals

I've always had trouble explaining exactly why I love Rosemary so much.

I still do.

It's not special or unique, it's this constant...something. Her emotions are clear, her thoughts are illustrated well, her highnpoints are really high, and her hiccups are very low. She's just consistently kept me entertained and wanting more, and that never happened with anyone else. So yeah, give her a look.

---

And now I guess it's my go.

0. Rutherford "RJ" Roger Jr.

RJ was hard. I changed, and that made it harder. A lot of my characters are now, because of him. And you know, it worked, I'm grateful that I decided to finish what I started. But I think we weren't on the same wavelength anymore. Because even though I got better, I felt I was being held back. So I killed him, just to see how it would end, just for it to end.

Hindsight's a bitch.

I'm gonna do these in no particular order. I like all these kids a whole lot and you should give them a read if you haven't, they're very enjoyable.

Theodore Fletcher: I stuck up for Theo, in the beginning, and then I kind of cooled on him as the game went by. Looking back, I shouldn't have. Espi caught some flack for a lot of things about Theo and there are times where his characterization shakes as he tries to find direction, but you know what? I'm going to say that's not a bad thing. In fact, I'm going to say it's a very good thing. I'm going to say that that's Theo. Theo is a pasty, awkward, good-hearted suburbanite middle class kid whose greatest hardship before the game was that he was too blunt and sometimes that made people not want to be his friend. That's a simplistic way of stating it, and it's a legitimate issue in normal life, but Theo is so, so unprepared for anything even close to SotF. He has never seen a violent situation in his life, if we're going off of his profile, so of course he's erratic. Of course he makes fevered jumps of reasoning and logic that don't make a lot of sense. He has zero context for anything that's going on and it's eating him alive from the inside out.

Yeah, it could have been better supported. Yeah, some of that I think comes from a little bit of genuine OOC hesitation and confusion. But for a character as early in Espi's SotF tenure as Theo to execute such a big, ambitious arc with complex themes and relationships that would impact a vast portion of the game in one way or another? Hot damn. Some of us, myself definitely included, were too hard on this kid. He's not flawless, but none of us are Theo is a really good character, and he deserves to be remembered that way.

Amaranta Montalvo: I wrote a whole big thing on Mara just a little bit ago.. In general though, Mara just has this nice, complete story full of interesting people and decisions and emotions, littered with vignettes informing us about her life and her struggles in the system she's been brought up in. It's really powerful, and it makes her an effective winner, because I don't know where her story is going next, but I know I want to read it. That's really all I can ask for.

Joachim Lovelace: One of the joys, for me, in running a critique thread is that I get to dig into characters I really love and think about why I love them, as you'll see pretty frequently in this line-up. Joachim is one I get the privilege of doing soon. I love how Riki takes this person driven by such a simple concept and makes them this full, vibrant, entertaining character, who expresses himself through austerity. Joachim packs so much into every little thing he does and it's phenomenal. I am truly honored to have finished his story, and there's no better complement I've been paid about my writing anywhere than Riki asking me to do so. Everything good about my run was laid down by Riki and scaffolded well before I wrote my first word with him, so he is due all the credit.


Hansel Williams: Hansel is another one I've been able to talk about at greater length. The summary is that nobody hit me, challenged me, or forced me to think in the way that Hansel Williams did. He was a complicated character in ways I can't accurately convey without going on a rant. I like to think of him as that excellent picture Medic drew that's up on his wiki page: Alone, with his back turned to the world, making everyone think he's hiding some kind of terrible threat, when really he's just confused, uncertain, and broken.

He had a good run. I cherish him.

Kelly Peterson: Kelly had a very short, efficient story that launched an effective killer arc with grounded, tense emotions and a tight narrative. She died very early, but still managed to be effective with what little time she had and put over the others in her scenes admirably. I think she's one of my favorite examples of how to handle an early game death and sell it with out a big, complicated connection to your killer, or even a real fight. Good on her.

Carlon Wheeler; I do a lot of silly, overdramatic posturing whenever Carlon is brought up. I need to, because humor and performance are how I deal with sadness.

It's been over a year since Carlon died. Lots of good characters have come and gone since then. I'm still sitting here with tears in my eyes because I glanced over his death thread before reading him.

That's all I have to say about that.

Deanna Hull: Like a lot of people on this list, I've talked about Deanna at length. She's someone it took me awhile to catch up with, even with our plots entwined to a degree. D/N does such a wonderful job of weaving the physical and emotional space of a scene into every thread Deanna is involved in. It brings a lot of vibrancy and life to her threads, and I really appreciated that. It brought out her character in a way I didn't expect, and I'm always interested to see non-direct ways of developing a character out.

Tessa Blackridge: Tessa is an interesting pick in that she plainly lacks one of the big things I push as a pillar of SotF character development: Character inter-play. She interacts with one person. It goes okay. They part and very little happens other than a small, simple conversation. She's essentially an island in V5, not touching a lot of stories while she's alive and not creating a lot of thematic ripples when she died.

But if you ever find yourself in a position where rolls or circumstance mean that you have to write that sort of island of a character? Tessa is a master class. I don't think, pound for pound, there is a single death that entertained me as much as Tessa's did. It's so vibrant and full of character, so effectively paced and themed, that it's really hard for me to hold her brevity and isolation against her. It's just a lot of fun, and I like to have fun.

The message to take away from Tessa isn't "write about your character meeting Death when they die," or "write a death that is, essentially, fan fic." I don't think I'd be nearly as entertained if I read another death in the same mold as Tessa's. But using an isolated device to build on a character without much development, and shift the death from a focus on dying to a focus on what kind of person they were? Brilliant, cheeky, lovable. Five stars.

Maximillian Sawyer: Max is another one that I've been rather hard on, in the past. A lot of it had to do with him just not clicking with me, and I maintain that he has some flaws. But everyone on this list does, and Max ends up being a thoroughly dislike-able person. One thing I've held against Max is that his narrative isn't self-aware, but looking back I was wrong about that, in a way. Max never really makes the connections or understands what a bad person he is, but there are doubts. There are moments where he questions himself. In a broad narrative sense he pushes through them and doesn't change in the slightest, but it's interesting that they're there, and I think going back and noticing them helps me realize a lot of the misshapen thoughts I had about him.

Max also has a lot of really visceral, interesting writing going on in his narrative. The raw violence of his scenes presented in all of its grime and distaste is really marvelous. Again, it turns me off of him as a character. It makes me dislike him in ways I don't typically dislike characters. In retrospect, that makes me need to step back and say that TBH was doing something very, very right with him.

Marcus Leung: Marcus is hard for me to talk about, especially given some revelations I've had tonight that I'll share as this goes on. He's a character that became very dear to my heart very quickly after Persy picked him up. I really enjoyed the direction he was going in, and I was fascinated with how much character and momentum was generated with someone who really hadn't done all that much at that late point in the game, and had been stuck in stalling threads without much development when he was adopted the first time, let alone the second. I wanted to see where this train led.

Then he was killed unrolled in a blitz that was so fast and so unplanned that it was hard to believe it was real. Looking back, it's a good death. It's a fine place to kill him. It makes sense given his situation. I ended up really upset by this death, though. I called Persy lots of names, mostly in jest, about it, and it ended up becoming a running joke since I'd also felt that R.J. had died before his time. Below all the humor though, Marcus's death hurt something in me. Marcus was fresh, and new, and I loved him. He was supposed to be safe. The rules are that as long as a character is active and RNGsus hasn't plucked their name out of a house, you get to keep reading them. Unrolled deaths are a very uncommon thing in SotF, and Marcus's really hit me in an emotional place in my life.

Marcus has a really great story, and though it hurt me at the time, he teaches a good lesson both in SotF and in writing in general: No matter how much you love something and how safe you think it is, it can be gone in an instant.


For my own character, I pick Alda Abbate. The reason is pretty simple: She was fun. I have no regrets with her, from beginning to end. She held a complete, engaging story that I had a lot of fun writing, and I wouldn't change a thing about it. I wrote with a lot of really amazing people who brought me a lot of joy, I finished some very fulfilling posts, and I got the chance to save my favorite character and ultimately read him on into Endgame. What more can you ask for?

[Grand Moff Hissa]

V6 Top Ten

A V6 revival of the Top Ten concept. Fairly low participation.

[+] V6 Top Ten

Since V4 and V5 had one, I figure we might as well set this up for V6!

Rate your top 10 V6 kids, in no particular order unless you choose to do so. Limiting yourself to one character per handler is preferred, but not strictly mandatory. If you like, you can also add an 'honorary 11' by describing your favorite character that you wrote in V6.

Also stealing from Turtle's stealing from Murderweasel:

You can rank your list or not. I don't really care either way. What I'd like to really emphasize, though, is that this is not a place to trash on other handlers for their favs. Everyone's got different tastes, and that's fine. That said, it's totally cool to dislike characters. It's cool to talk about disliking them, too. There's nothing wrong with even politely discussing stuff that didn't do it for you in the General Discussion Thread. This thread, however, is just for lists and talking about stuff you like. Oh, and maybe for suggestions on other cool characters for people to read, based on ones they've enjoyed. That's cool, too.

A final thing: please, please don't feel bad if your character is not mentioned. SOTF has had [[editor's note; lots]] characters over the course of its time (counting pregame V5 as of this second, and NOT counting non-V1 terrorists and the like, who ARE okay choices, as in the original thread). That means that you get to pick your favorite 1.14% of the game. That means the percentage you can choose here is lower than the percentage IQ threshold to join MENSA. It's not a slight or anything if you're not named.

Have at!

[+] Spoiler

[Ed 2019 Spoiler originally titled "Ten is the debut studio album by American rock band Pearl Jam, released on August 27, 1991 through Epic Records."]no particular order

Min-Jae Parker (backslash) - Min-Jae is the sort of character that just naturally pops out and sticks into my head as a very thorough, solid, impactful character. Emphasis on character because Jae's rings so clearly and strongly. The narrative is brusque, efficient, effective, but still manages to make a lot about Jae's character clear in it's harsh and cynical tone efficiency. There are nice little bits of remembrance and recall, fragments of the memories of old life like his tribulations with Hazel that simultaneously humanize him and continue to make the numbness caused by his journey and his embracing of his pointlessly pseudo-but-not-really-nihilistic viewpoint that turns him into a clear but relatable villain, driven by relatable emotions like anger, pain, and pure and utter exhaustion.

All this done in a way where Jae doesn't overpower part of any plot he's in but neatly slots in, makes his perspective clear while not detracting from the pacing of others. It's the right amount of prose, phrased and paced smoothly almost no matter the thread or circumstance It's brilliant stuff. Highlights of his arc include the very relatable dramatic back-and-forth with Hazel and his arbitrarily defining hatred of Brendan. He's sort of slid into and out of parallel island storylines like a specter- backslash choosing to have him start calling himself along the lines of a ghost or shadow is a nice touch.

Wayne Cox (Iceblock) - Short and utterly efficient at portraying a coward of a character and making a point. Also making him nice and relatable, we get a good hefty look into his internal narrative, there's always a respectful distance given, a bit of ambiguity allowed in his motivations via interesting diction and focusing on the implications rather than the actual proper causes: Iceblock's quite good at spelling things out without actually needing to outright spell things out, if that makes sense, it always provides for a fascinating and compelling read. Wayne starts with a nice burst of action then thoroughly explores the consequences of such, we as readers get to see a strongly characterized sort of person who could do such a thing. It's a good study of moral cowardice and guilt, one that lasted exactly as long as it needed to and no more.

Lily Caldwell (Violent Medic) - Speaking of cowards.

Lily is a slow burn, using Medic's mastery of 'I don't need to really say a lot or make it all that seriously phrased to get my point across with gusto' prose. Lily always had my interest from the get go, even if her story started out relatively slow in terms of actual events she had a lot of interesting interactions, with Lili, with Alex and Jeremy, that spelled out and externalized her character in a way that was engaging to follow. It did hint at what was to come when it promptly still took me (at least) by surprise, Lily's alliance with Isabel is one of my favorite meta decisions of V6, forging a brilliant relationship that is dysfunctional and terrible and perfect at making both characters in it look at their absolutely best worst. Lily efficiently, without too much need for over-drowning us in prose, shows us the shortcomings of pragmatism, it's a very human look at this sort of character archetype with the unique twist of 'I'm allying myself with a killer' for revenge.

The bit where she starts to be jealous of Isabel for being strong where she's not... good stuff, good stuff. It's almost chilling, even, what sort of mundane but effectively petty points Lily as a character makes about how cowardice and weakness shapes people.

Isabel Ramirez (VoltTurtle) - Moving on the the other half of one of my favorite V6 relationships ever in history. An old school SOTF killer that is made to make sense. Pretty good stuff. Turtle's tonal choices always effectively conveyed what sort of sociopath freak Isabel was under the surface well, I really was not surprised by this happening at all. Her early rampage is okay, and her kill of Conrad in particular is excellent with RC playing his part to perfection, but Isabel is happily defined by the complexities and subtleties of her relationship to Lily. It's actually kind of awesome how a relationship manages to be so meaningful while simultaneously being so one sided. Isabel using Lily as a lot of things at once is actually quite difficult to truly parse in a positive sense: Isabel as a character is actually disturbingly obtuse and hard to read in the truth of her genuine sentiment or lack thereof for Lily, she's all over the place, and that fits a character of her ilk damn perfectly, manipulative through and through.

Die Anywhere Else is still also one of V6's best threads I will fight you all.

Scout Pfeiffer (Ciel) - Legends say I still cannot spell her last name right to this day. Anyways, Scout. Ciel had a perfect narrative voice for Scout. Brusque, pretty damn irreverent at times, harsh and sharp and self-critical. Scout is the premiere player hunter of V6 because she functionally plays like a pretty classic and archetypical one... but she just does it so well. She lives and breathes the role, with just enough slack to also breathe as a character of her own. Who, to be fair, is still pretty much born to play the role she did, but it just works. It's like, yes, she almost only makes sense as a player hunter but she just sells it. She's a living and breathing character and I love her and how much she just shuts down others' bullshit in a realistic way. Less awkward one liners- externally- the ones she does say aloud hit the mark.

Caedyn Miller (Empress Plush) - Evil but relatable because it's often so pettily framed it's amazing. Even her latest turn into a 'fuck everyone and everything' omnicidal prick just makes a neat amount of sense to me in terms of her character. She's a selfish hypocritical asshole who has no self-awareness and gives no fucks. She treats Jasmine half like shit but also uses her as a lifeline and moral leash? Does it make sense? It would be a hard sell normally but Plush just threads that needle perfectly. Caedyn's internal narrative lacks just enough self-awareness to make it clear why she can effectively sell her thoughts and actions the way she does, in the context of reading from her own point of view. It makes for a brilliant villain who didn't need a lot of kills to really stand out to me as one of V6's best.

Johnny McKay (fogue/Bikriki) - Uselessness personified. I mean it. Johnny's entire character is just a very unique and well written take on those characters who fade into the background. By purposely designing it so that he fades into the background and really doesn't matter a lot. Fogue's irreverent passages full of stuff that only sort of mattered and never had any narrative staying power versus Riki's more minimalistic approach were both effective at getting the point across. Johnny stood out to me in not standing out, because the portrayal of his being a waste of space and post effort just makes him so unique, a unique voice that provides excellent contrast to almost any scene he's in, a cute little self-contained story and tragedy that puts him as a positive accessory to one of the island's more long running 'hero' arcs that manages to steal some damn spotlights by stealing no spotlights at all.

Olivia Fischer (Maraoone) - Another character mostly self-contained who never has too much outward impact. Except in dying, hilariously enough. What makes Olivia my swag is that, well. I have a weakness for very good abstract metaphor and interesting atypical language, and a bunch of other folks on SOTF are all good at that- you know who you are- but Maraoone benefits from pacing it very well. And pairing it with a very good character, who had a very defined and strong internal back and forth, a wavering, weak of spirit character who falls into the orbit of another. Common enough thing but Olivia essentially carries herself on her own, as a character, without needing to actually do much. Something Mara tends to do and why I tend to like his work.

Asha Sur (dmboogie) - Boogie is a good writer everyone and their entire extended family knows that, but to me Asha was my favorite of his kids because, hm. She had just the right personality of intellectually irreverent and powerfully nice and friendly and altruistic that she very much stood out to me as an early hero, her philosophizing touched me strongly, her interactions with Wayne and Dorothy and later Jae were all very nice and down-to-earth while simultaneously setting up her character as something with a grandiose, larger-than-herself feeling in terms of moral import. It then all came crashing down with an excellent death that sets up a lot in terms of food for thought. I'm just going to qualify here that Asha versus Cass was a hard decision among 100 others I made making this list, I settled for Asha because I think while both thoroughly fascinating, Asha had more of an impact and influence in the grander scheme of things, Cass was more predictably self-contained as a story and that's of course awesome, but you have to judge these things holistically. I do, anyways.

Matthew Moradi (privyet) - I was on the Matt hype train before anyone else.

But yeah. How many times have I sung this character's praises? Matt's just so good at portraying himself in a relatable and thought-provoking way while maintaining an economy of verbiage and enough intrigue to allow him to go a number of ways for his finale. Still. While having murdered three people to death. It takes sharp and clever writing to be engaging and portray a fascinating character while being so sparse and spartan and privyet's just fucking got it. Even his often seemingly tongue-in-cheek delving into ruminating and philosophizing manages to be interesting while not detracting from the overall feel of Matt as a very simple but effective and impactful character.

Swear to god guys this is the last Matt spiel.

...

[+] anyways fuck you all here is 10 more

no particular order 2.0 the revenge of no particular order

Nate Turner (Slam) - Soooo smooth. Nate maintained hellacious consistency which I applaud Slam for while never being so uninteresting as a character. He had a harsh fall, but has also had a smoothly executed rebound. You have to classify this sort of arc in the same way you would a villain redemption arc, to be honest, since they're both similar degrees of dramatic character swerve that require solid reasoning. Nate is his own reasoning, and I like it so much. He's just so consistently... good, and pure, even at his worst. He can do a ton of things going forward from here and I'm interested to see where he ends up, where the roller-coaster of emotion finally lets off.

Noah Whitley (Laurels) - Legendary Meanwhile, probably never ever going to be matched in the remainder of SOTF history. But onto island Noah. Noah is a character that I think takes the best of Laurel's writing tendencies, his tendency to cleverly integrate references into narrative voices, and turns it into a strong character that has his charming moments of funniness that manage to be both engaging to readers and provide plenty of interesting intrigue- all his impromptu video calls back home, I swear he had the most by a longshot- while still managing his moments of seriousness... But not too many, which is actually refreshingly nice! Noah always has a strong positive demeanor and bounce to his narrative, even when dying like fuck. In his death scene for example it enforces the nature of his death, that it mattered in the end and it serves as a 'tide turns' moment against Isabel. In short Laurels' tone just makes Noah nice and stand out, comfortable in that position throughout his island career and providing a ton of quoteables along the way.

Jonathan Gulley (Toxiethetoxicavenger) - One hell of a ride from beginning to end. I'm pretty sure Jon objectively has had the most swerves in his arc, beginning to end, of any character on island. That wild ride is occasionally bumpy but for the most part Jon brings a ton to the table as Toxie integrates various elements smoothly into Jon's narrative. I love his nightmare sequences and flashbacks, they have the visceral and raw nature they need to have an impact and be memorable. The mask and the tape recorder... I love motifs, love them to death as a reader, and Jon... like, damn. Jon does a lot with a lot of characters and memorializes many of them in his time on island. Barry. Michael. Amanda. Darius... somehow. Now Brendan. I like that, it makes the island feel more alive when all these storylines become the torches carried by another character.

Toxie does a lot of stuff I like to see, really. I'd like to see more narratives like this in the future, perhaps cleaned up a little, in terms of just how integrative they are of other characters in such a fluid and organic way that is exciting to read. Carry others in your heart and devote to them some gorgeous-ass language and ideas, that's what we like. Obviously that doesn't work for everyone. But for Jon, yep. Exactly the perfect thing to be bringing to the table.

Alan Banks (Zetsumodernista/Wolley) - Yeesh okay. I may have overall bought into the hype with this boy a little too hard.

Essentially I just like the concept so so much. The execution? Sometimes questionable. But it just feels like Alan is this force of nature, he sort of goes the opposite direction from a lot of other characters. Very little relativity, hard to ground in anyway into the reality of some boring ass school in the Mojave Desert. It just works, by way of going to an extreme and sticking with it to the death. Alan brought interesting ideas to the fore, and a fascinating back and forth on morality that was on purpose ICly and contrived and pretty much bullshit but it made sense and was just sold as was, over the top, bashing against every other more normalized perspective around it. It just worked as a great point of contrast, unique, stand out.

But eh I'd rather we not do it again. Shrug. One time was more than enough.

Jeremiah Fury (MK Kilmarnock) - There is something in this character that's raw expertise in writing.

Jerry is funny. An idiot. It's sold in a way that makes Jerry passable as a serious character, only in a sense, but it's enough. It's like... it's the balance of the humor and the realism grounding the humor, Jerry admitting (by denial) that he's weird and has a strange mentality and approach and doubling down like the asshole he is. That just makes it all make sense, makes the humor all the sweeter in a manner because it becomes relatable, to me. MK does a good job of not committing too hard either way, letting the serious and the not so serious both breathe... the stupid shit is stupid, but it works well in the grand context of things. It's comedic relief done in a fairly captivating and compelling way. And the death scene was also a nice touch.

Benjamin Lichter (Malloon) - Ben is an insanely self-contained character from beginning to end. One of his few meaningful interactions before the one that brutally kills him is with another one of those very self-contained characters. Malloon however, gave us consistent and interesting characterization with plenty of small moments that breathed life into him, his family, his increasingly externally expressed paranoia. Plenty of content, and it's all mostly with himself sure, but it's some well written interesting narrative with a lot of nuance that tells the story of a kid. One with an interesting plan and a relatable mindset that made his arc a solid midgame read. I am so looking forward to Malloon's V7 work, there is so much promise here.

Jeremy Frasier (Yugikun) - Yep. Jeremy Frasier. In a ways the bane of my existence (curse your Martyr Approach).

So Jeremy's style is not always one I agree with, Yugi very much knows this at this point. But what it is is very very good at just getting the point across. Like I said before Jeremy is very much a character plainly dictated, designed, sealed and shipped to the reader for their digestion. There is a lot to digest. So much to digest. It's a character built through the micro details, through an enormous amount of carefully cultivated and crafted thought that tells us exactly what we the readers need to be hearing, but it also maintains enough ambiguity to allow us to draw our own conclusions. Jeremy's motivations and actions can easily be read a number of ways, from selfish to intelligent to barely coherent. It's realistic, it's at times fun, at times frustrating. But it's all there and there's enough of it that anybody could find something that resonates with them.

Like Jeremy/BB.

Kimiko Kao (Deamon) - Kimiko is a character who I can now actually in someways compare to Jeremy now that I think about it. They're characters with complex motivation and impulse, where the writer gives us a lot to work with in terms of drawing our own conclusions. Kimiko's a heavy thinker and Deamon paints for us a very clear picture of Kimiko's motivations and rationales, while not actually allowing us as readers to be sure she ever really figured it out. Her interactions with Vanessa and Enzo are ace moments for anyone looking to see how a very notorious killer can cleanly interact with kids they're not intending to kill. Kimiko's infamous but interestingly it sometimes doesn't feel like she deserves that infamy just pursuing her IC narrative. She's strongly ambiguous as a character considering what she's done, all credit to Deamon for making Kimiko that complex and fascinating.

Dorothy Shelley (whatever the hell Lore's name is now) - bitch

So, Dot's had another long ass winding journey, but definitely with a consistently downwards trajectory in terms of general demeanor and behavior. What can we say about her motivation? Hard to say. Dorothy is uniquely obtuse as Lore uses very fascinating and strong metaphor and abstract language to sell Dot from all sorts of odd angles that hint at things but never entirely spell out the truth. Of many of the SOTF villains Dot actually does the best, to me, at carrying an inherent aura of mystery that turns malicious. It's never so easy to tell whats up with her as she turns down the road she does: why is her mentality mutating the way it is? Lore swerves around that question and provides a twisted perspective on my favorite tropes of irrelevant character building moments during dramatic episodes, Dorothy is whimsical, weird, all while being a terrifying spectre of a person. Some rough edges but Lore's got hella potential with the way she manipulates her delivery.

Alessio Rigano (whatever the hell RC Helpo's name is now) - Ah, Alessio. So, as a person I hate this kid. Lets see why.

My first read on Al probably wasn't the most accurate, I think Coleen called it better. Coward. Lived as one and died as one, but the interesting thing about RC's internal narrative choices for Al is that they paint him in a better light than he deserves... sort of. There's definitely enough room, enough self-awareness from the 3rd person angle, to show us it's all mostly BS. Al presents so many unique ideas- from how he kills and situations he gets involved in to how he justifies himself- but the same undercurrent always underpins it, that struggle against himself and his own weakness and nature. It's a powerful arc forged from insignificant beginnings, brilliantly done, beginning to end. There's a lot to say, really. How he tries to moralize at Maria while randomly torturing her to death. How he treats the Suicide Squad (Kizi/Lili/Penelope/Raina/etc.) and flip flops on them, turns them into something meaningful in a way... he's complex, he's interesting in how he warps simple ideas of perception and intent over and over to make for one of V6's premiere killers.

[+] My own favorite kid

essentially

My faves:

Matt
Michael
Jae
Noah
Jeremy
Mitch
Ty
Penelope
Alba
Kaitlyn

Got no time to explain. Will explain later, perhaps. Essentially they are recs to sum up v6 for the people joining in v7.

Woo okay. Not going to cheat like I did with my final ten prediction here, one character per handler even if I liked a lot of them about equally.

In no particular order:

Coleen Reagan (MK Kilmarnock) - Part of what I really love about Coleen is that if you showed me her prose next to say, Brook or Cody, and I didn't already know better, I wouldn't immediately be able to peg that they were written by the same person. That's not a knock on any of Ricky's stuff (I love Brook and Cody too), it's an example of how trying something different can bring about really awesome results. Personality and arc-wise, Coleen is distinct from any other character Ricky has written before for SOTF and it made her surprising in a very good way.

Putting aside the novelty factor though, Coleen has a lot more to offer. She starts out on the island contemplating suicide, and at first glance it might even make a lot of sense for her character to have gone through with it then and there, given what was set up about her personality in pregame. But she doesn't. And fuck you Ricky I wanted that BDA quote for her. There were hints even in pregame that Coleen is made of sterner stuff than she initially appears, but choosing to live even though she knows she probably won't last is Coleen's early turning point on the island, even before Cameron's death. She goes on to be one of the most heroic (in my opinion) characters in V6's late game, even counting her various mistakes and failures along the way. Honestly sad that she didn't get to go on longer after killing Alessio, because I think she would have been a good, mostly-moral counterpart to all the shades of gray we've got going in to the last bit of the game.

Kaitlyn Greene (D/N) - And in almost direct contrast to Coleen, here's Kaitlyn being set up as some kind of morally-ambiguous at best, outright villainous at worst character from the very start of her island game, and she was a ton of fun the whole way. D/N has a real talent for putting a ton of character and voice into every post and even Kaitlyn's very first lines in her opening post give the reader a good idea of what she's like. She keeps that irreverent tone throughout most of her stay, particularly through her somewhat bumbling initial attempts at establishing herself as a threat, and I'd argue that that's part of what makes the kill that she achieves all the more shocking, both to the reader and to herself.

Kaitlyn's viewpoint on the island is unique as well; we've had our fair share of characters who sort of revel in the lawlessness of the island and some of those who made it out reflect on how it changed them for the better, but I'm hard-pressed to think of any who share the exact sort of empowerment, for lack of a better term, that Kaitlyn feels. Her death thread sums it up best, I think, where she's so self-assured and hell, having fun, while playing a cat-and-mouse death game with a friend. It's fun, interesting stuff.

Michael Crowe (ToxieTheToxicAvenger) - Speaking of irreverent. Michael's an interesting case because I started off kind of skeptical of him in pregame, but the setting of the island actually serves his outlandishness much better than a more down-to-earth setting did. His narrative is also just tongue-in-cheek enough the whole way through for you to know that while he buys into his own hype, his handler is much more self-aware, and it makes Michael a very fun wannabe hero, who doesn't realize that he's way in over his head until it's too late. Ironically, when he does finally make a stand that could actually be called heroic, he dies and we don't even get to see it. Maybe that's a commentary on something or just another touch of irony, but either way it caps off his story in a way that I found more fitting than if he had gotten a longer, more detailed death scene.

I have no idea what we're in for with Michael in Second Chances 2, but man am I looking forward to it.

Fiyori Senay (Riki) - I loved Fiyori in pregame and I love her in game proper and she is good, okay. Fiyori has an arc that's kind of opposite the arc that a lot of SOTF characters have, where she goes from uncaring and actually suicidal to really wanting to act and change things and live, where many people around her are giving up. The thing about Fiyori is that even with such a drastic change in her motivations, you don't get the sense that she as a person has changed much. Her narrative and personality are still very recognizable as the person that she was in pregame, and that's some good strength of character right there.

I like Fiyori in part because it's hard to guess what she'll do next. She's an enigma even to herself sometimes, and I get the sense that even though she has resolved to live if she can, she still doesn't really know what to do with herself. It makes one wonder if she would only be able to gain and keep this motivation in the exact kind of life or death situation that she's in, and whether it would be possible to maintain if she were to go back to the "real world". Also Riki pulled off one of the best brick jokes in SOTF, so there's that.

Cass Prince (dmboogie) - This was a hard choice between Cass and Asha, but while I'm more personally attached to Asha I feel like Cass is in some ways more recognized as a full character and also they're precious and good and pure and I love them and in my personal denial timeline they scissor-kicked Caedyn's head off and lived happily ever after.

But in all seriousness, Cass is really good and had a lot of moments that were personally touching for me. I appreciate a character who can find beauty and goodness in terrible things, and Cass is something of a unique twist on that in that they're distinct from the typical personality that you see with those sorts of characters. Cass is depressed, they feel worthless, they constantly reflect on how other people deserve to live more than they do, but they still manage to find peace and self-affirmation and to create something that will last after they're gone even in spite of Caedyn destroying it physically. There's some pretty powerful stuff there, I think.

Noah Whitley (Laurels) - Laurels made me feel an emotion and he's going to jail for it. This was also a tough choice because Laurels had a super solid group of kids this version, but Noah edges out the other two in terms of voice and characterization. You know who he is from pregame to his opening island posts all the way up through his death, and he never lets himself change for the worse even though he wavers from time to time. Noah is a good person through and through and that's why he didn't stand a chance in SOTF, but he made people happy along the way and that counts for something.

Also I'm dead serious about buying a book adaptation of All About My Mother if you do it, Laurels.

Caedyn Miller (Empress Plush) - Fun fact: I suggested the name Caedyn to Paige way back in the beginning of V6 pregame so I'm like her godmother. You're all welcome.

Caedyn is a good villain not because she's especially smart or badass or nearly as manipulative as she thinks she is, but because she is the logical extreme of the kind of sheer petty malice that teenagers are capable of. Her final post sums it up maybe a little too neatly, but the bottom line of all of Caedyn's actions are "because I want to and I can", and that's actually pretty chilling when you think about it. She's so convinced of her own right to do whatever the hell she wants that she doesn't care about the consequences for anyone but herself, and the way she goes about it constantly reminds the reader that she's not a grand-scale villain. She makes a lot of mistakes and buys into her own ego, just like a particularly amoral teen would. Everything she does are things that real people are capable of. That's why she's so hateable (and, in a way, scary).

Brendan Harte (Primrosette) Yo you all knew this was coming. I've gushed about Brendan so much throughout the version and also in my top ten predictions that I'm not sure there's a lot more detail for me to go into here, but just. God I love Brendan. I love my precious failure son even though I killed him. Prim was a joy to work with every time, from pregame to Brendan's final thread, and Brendan shaped one of my characters in a really significant way along with just being an interesting, sympathetic character even throughout all of his mistakes (and he makes so many mistakes, it's pretty much his defining characteristic. I love him.)

Bradley Floyd (General Goose) - Surprise bitch, bet you thought you'd seen the last of him. Bradley has the distinction of someone that I would probably strongly dislike were I to know him in real life, but being able to read him as a character and get inside his head and see how he works does him a lot of favors. I think the important thing is that, though he can be unpleasant, Bradley really isn't that bad of a person. He's annoying and crass and outright offensive sometimes, but he has good intentions and he doesn't want to hurt anyone. In fact, he himself is hurting a lot towards the end of his story, having just lost a family member and expressing genuine worry for his remaining family and friends, and unfortunately it's his coping method of humor that's his undoing at Kimiko's hands. Gianni took a character concept that could have been a one-note hate sink and made him a multi-dimensional, sympathetic real person. Good stuff.

Dorothy Shelley (Lore) - I love Dorothy because she is just not attached to reality at all. After her first thread, she personally makes it clear that she's going to be in denial until she dies, and then she is. She daydreams about mermaids and shit while people are dying, and even as it starts to go from coping method to an actual downward spiral of sanity slipping away, Dot stays off-beat and silly in a way that is simultaneously funny and really disturbing as she becomes a killer. Even her death is funny on the surface and creepy when you stop to think about it, and that's Dorothy in a nutshell. She's a unique villain with a very distinct voice and absolutely worth a read.

[Grand Moff Hissa]

What Could Have Been

A long-running thread detailing plans that never came to fruition. Popular enough that a continuation persists to the modern day (and a spinoff has recently been spawned). The original thread spanned everything from V4 to V6.

[+] What Could Have Been Part One

Lets face it, we've ALL had ideas for what our characters could do on the island which we never got around to actually doing. Whether it was because the character in question died too early, or someone else's character died too early, or you decide that the idea in question is actually a lot dumber in hindsight then it seemed at the time. Everyone I think has at least one idea they wanted to try out at some point with their characters, but for whatever reason the idea never came to fruition.

Which is why i've decided to set up THIS thread. Basically, its just for sharing any ideas you had for your characters to do which you never got around to/decided against/completely forgot about/etc... This can include:

Character Development that never came to fruition.

A humourous moment which was later deemed too stupid to actually try out.

A certain interaction with a certain character (Maybe you were given someone's deathrights, only for your character to end up dying first?)

A specific death scene which had to be compromised for time.

An intended Face Heel Turn/Heel Face Turn that never actually happened in the end.

Etc......

As a note, though, it'd probably be best to only mention ideas for characters who're already dead. After all, you wouldn't want to unintentionally spoil anything about your survivng character(s), would you?

Anyway, I think I'll start it off with my deceased characters:

Marty J. Lovett: Wannabe Vigilante

If Marty hadn't of died so quickly after Joshua's death, he'd of gone on to become something of a 'player hunter' after he mans up and decides to finally try and make a difference in the game. In a way, though, he kind of DID do that in the end... Only to end up getting himself killed in the process. Oh well, back to the old drawing board...

Marty gets chased by a psycho player

A part of me REALLY wanted to write a chase scene at some point between Marty and one of the more deranged players. I was actually tempted at one point to ask Atomic Waffle if it was possible to have Alex Rasputin chase him with a chainsaw.

Marty reuinites with Carol

Before she died, I really wanted them to meet up at some point, seeing as she was one of the few characters he actually cared about. That being said, I guess i'm kind of glad that they DIDN'T meet in the end, seeing as her death further served as angst fuel for Marty (The poor depressing bastard...)

Marty VS Jimmy

For some reason, the idea of Marty and Jimmy having some kind of "scrawny guy brawl" just amused me. After all, for once Jimmy would be facing an opponant who he actually stood a chance at beating in a fair fight. However, I decided to go against it after seeing where Jimmy's character development was heading, and in the end I never even got around to asking Little if it was possible.

Joshua Krakowski does an air guitar solo

One of the dumber ideas I came up with. Basically, Joshua at some point would find a camera and decide to put his ipod right next to it, play some rock song and begin to air-guitar to the beat on camera and generally act as though he was on television. Yes, it WAS a very dumb idea.

Joshua confronts Janet Binachi

This one I blame on the rolls. I was planning on asking Dete at some point (Namely when Janet was eventually slated to die) if it would be possible for Joshua and Marty to be involved in her death. The basic idea was that Joshua found himself in a situation where he had Janet as his mercy, only to decide to spare her seeing as he's such a nice guy and everything (Even though Janet killed the first person Joshua met on the island). HOWEVER, when Janet attempts to get him whilst his back is turned, Marty shoots her before she could kill his best friend.

Joshua's oblivious to the game

I originally intended Joshua to be completely oblivious to the horrors that were occurring around him for at LEAST the first couple of threads he was in. As you would guess, that idea was thrown right out the window when he ended up being one of the first guys on the island to see what happens to people who try to remove their collars (Damnit Remi!)

Vera Osborne becomes a psycho player

Alongside Maxwell, Vera was intended to become a player at a later point in the game. Only, unlike Maxwell, with Vera I wanted her to snap and essentially lose her mind to the game and become one of the crazier players (Like a certain Liam Brooks, for example). However, in the end, I decided that it would have been silly for her to snap so easily, considering how cool and level headed she had already proven to be. And, seeing as that was going to be her main character development, that ended up being the main reason why I chose to hero her in the end.

Vera meets Sarah Xu

If anything because she was the only character she really interacted with in pregame, other then Maxwell of course (And we all know how THAT ended...).


And... Thats all for now. Anyone else got any abandoned ideas they'd like to share?

Ooh, I like this thread. I had quite a few ideas for my characters actually. Colin is the only one who got to do everything I wanted him to, and honestly I was lucky for that fact.

Chadd and Janet meet up.

I think this one was pretty obvious, especially with the tail end of his death. He was going to find her, present her the ring he had, and ask her to marry him, on camera. From here I was going to go with one of two different options...

The most morbid engaged couple in the world goes Bonnie and Clyde on the island.

Before I took Rekka under my wing, Chadd was my most likely player character, and frankly looking at the plans I had for Jackie, Colin, and Peter, I wasn't going to have one if he didn't carve a path home. I was originally going to turn Chadd into my pseudo-flagship, and try and get him and Janet into the final four.

A marriage. In SotF.

This was a plan I didn't even get to talk to Slamexo about before the game started, where at least the other ones I did. This idea was basically to have Chadd and Janet travel to the Parish, run into Jessie or Imraan, and have a ghetto-rigged ceremony. It may not have been legal, but I'm pretty damn sure that with a tragic death it would have been recorded and honored back in the states. The whole reason that none of these plans came to fruition however was the fact that Slamexo left v4. While I didn't know Vanikoro well, it wasn't anything on him. I had just put so much work into planning their time on the island with Slamexo that when he left, I was extremely discouraged and frankly didn't want to play Chadd anymore.

Rekka believes he's in the 1920's.

The direction I was taking Rekka was obvious. He was snapping to act more like the gangsters he held so dear in the movies. However, I was originally going to have him drop farther and father on the sanity meter, eventually believing that this was actually 1920's America (or at least an island off the coast of America), and the announcements were detailing his hits. So basically everyone who killed after that particular snap would be on Rekka's death list. A player-hunter yes, but an extremely non-traditional one at that.

Well this shouldn't be hard.

Chadd and Janet meet up.

Exactly the same as Trav. I did want the two to get together and go all tears of apology drama of all things bright and beautiful in the game, and I feel incredibly dickish about events that forced me to temporarily vacate V4, especially since I was able to get back eventually and even reclaim Janet. I've already said it to Trav a lot but I'm still so sorry that it went up in smoke this way.

To be more specific and less angsty about it:

Janet debates whether she loves Chadd.

Some hints of this made it into Janet's last few posts but I had been toying with a longer saga in my head of Janet trying to come to terms with whether or not she really cared about Chadd after cheating on him. The Star Crossed Lover thread is undeniably one of my oddest when taken out of context, but had I managed to retain enough love for Janet without Chadd around I would've slowly twisted that dream and its surrounding thoughts into something much more confusing and nasty. Had Chadd actually bothered to propose to Janet, for all I could predict she might've just said yes to keep the poor guy together when everyone around him was dying, or perhaps she would've flat our broken his heart? Wouldn't that have made for a scene.

Ugh, I feel more dickish now.

Amber Whimsy Goes Loony

Whilst Amber was probably my least favourite character in life, after her death I began to appreciate her personality a lot more. Before that though I had already imagined her going quite delusional and becoming V4's local war correspondant with a fake branch microphone and everything. Hell, she'd probably start to piss off the viewers the way she would keep shoving her face in the cameras.

Even though that was a bust, I still could see her becoming a player. She definitly would not be a cold calculating one, but instead a stark raving self obsessed nutty girl. That might've been rather dull to write, but it still could've been in the bag had she lived past the first rolls.

Alice Boucher the Butcher

Most certainly my most player capable character (and definitely written with that intention, whether I realised it or not), Alice didn't exactly need a lot of justification to start slaughtering every student on the island that moved, regardless of my 'attempts' in pre-game to humanise her some more. Thank god that story took over this one and made her way more interesting for it.

I didn't have a whole lot, cause mostly I'm just improvising and making shit up as I go, but one thing I wanted to do was just:

Lily goes player.

If you look at her death thread, the way she snapped to commit suicide was the way I would have had her acting as she started killing people, with full news anchor narration, probably even busting the writing for her down to minimalism. You can see evidence of the forthcoming snap in her intropost where she's scribbling away in her notepad. Then she got rolled, I saw a great opportunity to kill her, and I let her die.

Edit: Now that I think about it:

Ray goes player.

Obvious choice, considering he could snap and go extreme in his efforts to get back to his family, but he ran into people who served as surrogate families that kept me from going that route (That and a shitty weapon pick). The years of wrestling would've made for some nasty hand-to-hand confrontations.

I really didn't have many ideas that I didn't get to carry out, considering I've only lost one of my characters and one I adopted.

Miranda becomes a player.

Self explanatory really. Out of the three students I created, Miranda was pretty much designated the one most likely to start killing. However, due to not getting much RP experience with her in pregame, and hating the way she was heading in V4 (not to mention Garry overtaking her and become my flagship character), I just got rid of her with my Hero Card.

Garry kills Clio Gabriella.

During the rolls, Inky and me came up with an idea for what was going to happen between Clio and Garry after Luke's death. If she wasn't saved, Garry would've continued his assault on Clio and killed her in his rage. However she did get saved and the rest is, as they say, history.

This looks fun. I'll go ahead and keep living characters off of this except for two particular things.

Everett becomes a player: Soooo... embarassing as it is, all my characters were originally designed to snap and play (I had to do that with each new one I made because I kept realizing how dumb the ideas were and jettisoning them). Everett had a big inferiority complex, was pretty scared, and just generally was going to lose it and decide that, for once, he could be the best at something. It was fairly bare-bones and boring, so I'd ditched it by halfway through pregame. I sort of lost track of where I was going with Everett in the end, so I killed him off in the first rolls. This leads nicely to...

Aaron dies in the first rolls: When Aaron came up in the first set of rolls, I was originally just going to let him die. Sol and I even had a scene planned, where, while handing over her gun, Lily practiced poor gun safety and accidentally fatally shot Aaron. I figured it'd be interesting to see a character who'd had a pretty long pregame and a lot of connections go out early and anticlimactically. Aaron was actually going to basically freak out as he realized that he wasn't even special enough to last a day.

Luckily, Mimi, Jonny, and Ricky all came to me and went, "Stop being dumb about this." I decided that I actually did have some things to do with Aaron, and resolved to save him. I swapped immediately because it seemed really unfair to potentially catch a Hero by having stated that I wouldn't Swap when I had, in fact, become willing to do so.

Isaiah meets Liz Polanski: This one actually got bounced around quite a lot. Isaiah was going to stumble across a wounded Liz, attempt to help her back to health, and quite likely die horribly for his efforts. Thread timelines didn't mesh well, though, so a different group ended up performing that function, and Isaiah ended up catching a golf club to the skull when RJ got rolled.

Kimberly dies in D-Day: I actually did consider killing Kimberly off in her first thread. I wasn't happy with her in the slightest, couldn't find her voice, and had no clue where to go with her, so I had her do something really dumb and get shot for her troubles. Suddenly, she was fun to write again, so I decided not to any pre-roll deaths (or Swap/Hero her, as I had originally intended).

I have a ton, so I'm only going to post the few off the top of my head! Good thread idea xD

Roland and Dave Kiss
When Roland was set to die, it seemed like we were going to run out of time to complete the death. Rather nervous about the entire thing, Rugga suggested the terrorists should find out that Roland was the one spreading the message of the Island location, and simply blow his collar. I cleared it with Clu and it was set as the backup plan. Then, I extended on that. In the Swamp, the escape group plays a game similar to spin the bottle, mess up on the coded message and you've got to kiss someone. The idea was Roland would mess up, and wind up being forced to kiss Dave. Seconds before they kiss, (Or during) Roland's collar blows, covering Dave in blood, and every bugs out. It was a hilarious idea, but it didn't really fit with Roland. He's such a serious dude, and it was such a silly death. Eventually the killers showed up and Roland met his end in a more gruesome manner.

Jay goes Player
Instead of Jimmy, I'd originally planned to have Jay be the one to snap and start popping heads left and right. Similar to Kris, Jay would've gotten an early kill by being surprised and accidentally shooting someone. Then after a bout of puking and whatnot he'd get over it and turn total player. This didn't really fit Jay as a character, as he's way more jittery and indecisive. When I decided to make Jimmy a player, I scrapped the idea and revised Jay.

Jimmy meets Chris Davidson
Before Gambit got banned, (during pre-game in fact) I had asked if Jimmy could run into Chris, and the pair could hit it off. Chris was a sheltered Christian boy, Jimmy is a foul-mouthed little bastard who probably deserves every inch of hate he's got in one way or another. The idea was Jimmy would protect the kid, or pretend to, then after running into a major player, Jimmy would steal his things and scram like a coward. This would eventually cause a hefty bit of guilt on Jimmy's part, and self-hatred for his cowardice. Of course, Gambit killed Chris in his second ever post. So the second that happened, the plan went kablooey

Pandora's Book
Roland met Pandora early in the game, in the House of Mirrors. After talking (ie, being thrown into a wall) Pandora was temporarily knocked out, and Roland, Dave and Isabel left. Selphie came to me with an idea for Roland to eventually encounter Pandora again, after she had been grievously wounded by another player. Pandora would be heroed for Roland in case he was set to die first, so this was pretty much Pandora Black's intended death. Pandora had been working in her diary, recording various bits of information from her time on the Island, and her dying wish would be for Roland to keep the book close at hand. He'd then mercy kill her, and go on his way, reading from the book from time to time, feeling pretty guilty about the entire thing. Unfortunately Selphie had to leave the game, and Roland was rolled before Pandora was. I didn't want to bug her new handler over an old promise, so Roland died well before Pandora, with this plot line unfinished.

Roland goes Crazy
This idea was sorta present in my writing for Roland, at certain points, most notably in his conversation with Kitty during Shore Leave, and his inner monologue during Dead Flag Blues. If Roland had never hooked up with the escape group, and unable to come up with his own idea for escape, he'd have ultimately realized that the only way to kill Danya would be to win the game. The idea was Roland would start pretending to play the game, and then attempt to kill Danya during the post-game conversation, like Bryan Calvert. A flimsy plan to begin with, as Roland would hack and slash his way across the Island he'd grow increasingly paranoid that he'd die, and his murders would be for nothing. Another problem would've been the fact he'd be effectively undercover, unable to explain to the folks watching at home what his plan was, knowing that his family would be watching and believing he'd gone completely crazy. Something that would have driven him literally crazy. I was actually really fond of this idea, as I always considered Roland to be a pretentious bastard, always a little too sure of himself and always refusing to change his views. He'd have eventually gotten his comeuppance, being murdered by a friend of one of his victims, stubbornly refusing to admit defeat (or that his murders were unjustified.) I kinda liked this idea, as it had Roland walking along the fine line between a vigilante/anti-hero and outright crazed bastard. Of course, the second he found Feo's group in the Ranger Station, Roland devoted himself to the escape attempt and this idea was scrapped.

My turn!

Aileen, the Happy Little Knight Templar
I already stated this on the wiki, but...

Like many characters, Aileen was going to be- you guessed it!- a player hunter. I was thinking of having her kill someone right at the start, freak out, decide that since she's already started killing she might as well not worry about that, and start playing. But, she'd usually attack other players, people who attack her, or clearly out of their gourd. Gambit had also wanted Aileen to kill Daniel, simply because "she was the only one who hated him", but I said I couldn't think of an IC reason why she'd randomly attack Daniel at least early on, despite his protests. But, ironically enough, hanging around Aaron prevented Aileen from going all "PURGE THE GUILTY!", at least for right now.

Aileen's Potential Kind-Of Death At The Hands of Bridget
As the extension of the above, back in pre-game Rocky and I thought of a way to kill Aileen off with Bridget. Aileen and Bridget run into each other, and start fighting. Bridget breaks Aileen's arm, and before Aileen could use her other arm, she breaks it as well, simply to prevent her from killing the FILTHY. Aileen proceeds to have a mental breakdown, at which point it is hinted at that she was acting all extremist was not because she feared death but because she was worried about someone going Jenson on her to the point of killing people to prevent it. Since she is now helpless, having her arms and god knows what else broken, she flips out. She screams at Bridget to finish her off, but Bridget simply leaves behind a gun and tells her that if she wants to die she could simply do it herself instead, basically refusing to mercy kill someone and leaving her behind. At this point either a) a third party pops in and decides to mercy kill her at her pleading, b) she gets stuck in a Danger zone, c) she figures out a way to kill herself despite her broken limbs, or d) one of the psychos she was precisely worried about comes in, messes with her, and kills her off. This is probably not going to happen in the future for obvious reasons.

Remy-Reiko Team-Up Funtimes
The reason why Remy and Reiko shared the same opening thread was because originally Rocky wanted Remy and Reiko to team up on the island. Yes, that means they were going to be killer buddies presumably, both flipping out over Reikadeath. The reason why it didn't happen was simply because Josée had also entered the thread and wanted a team-up, and he didn't see how a Remy-Reiko team up would work under those circumstances.

While we're on the subject, overall originally there was supposed to be a bunch of Remy-Reiko and Remy-Reika shiptease, but not much showed up in canon.

Happy Fun Twin Murder Time!
Oh, and Remy and Josée were supposed to be flat-out rivals in-game, but Sky changed his mind when he was writing Josée's opening post and decided that despite all the hatred that they shared against each other, Josée would try to make a truce with him. Not much to say here, other than we changed our minds.

One More Thing About Remy
How bad was his descend into paranoia supposed to be? Well, quick list of possible scenes I wanted to write with him to get an idea.

- Remy finds something to eat. Remy eats it. Remy starts to have stomach problems, and while it's most likely stress, malnutrition, or something along those lines, Remy begins to freak out, thinking someone poisoned him. So he forces himself to vomit so that the "poison" is out of him. In graphic detail.
- What the hell was his freaking out about Death (caused by Cisco's own ramblings of calling someone by that name) about? Originally Remy was going to eventually develop Capgras delusions and start thinking that everyone was being possessed/mind controlled/replaced by Kris Hartmann (who killed Reika) and/or "Death" (just Cisco's nickname for Joe Rios that he took way out of proportion, and apparently he thinks at one point is Kris). So, he'd basically think that someone had some kind of magical powers and was controlling random people to attack him specifically. Hey, he's crazy, it doesn't have to make sense for sane people.

Possibly others when I think of them.

Carol (Or Rein) Bitches Hermione Out And Gets An Easy-Bake Over The Head For It
This is all one you know by now. Hermione was supposed to die differently; act Stepford-y, get bitched out, hit someone over the head with an Easy-Bake, and gets a hail of gunfire. When it was brought up to me that Hermione was going to die in there, I said that Carol should be the one to do it, simply because she had just found out three of her friends were dead and another was killing people, so obviously her temper was going to be uncharacteristically short especially when it came to Hermione's type of antics. Selphie said that Sky wanted Rein to do it, so I said "Okay!". But Sky had mysteriously disappeared, I had no clue if I should have Carol be the one to bitch her out and get conked over the head after all, and eventually Hermione... took a different route, to say the least.

Chase's Descent Into Insanity
After the events of Break Up And Break Down, I kind of realized that although it had serious woobie potential, I actually wasn't fond of writing Chase as simply one who gets victimized. So, starting at some point around Day 2 or 3 I kind of decided I wanted Chase to do a heel-turn, so I can do something more interesting with her and the fact that Jon and Dawne were going to/had died left an opening of sorts. The reason why it never happened was simply because I never found the best spot to go "FUCK THIS SHIT I KILL YOU ALL BWUAHAHAHA". That, and Rocky tried to talk me out of it when I brought it up to him, saying that it was predictable (slightly timid acting goth girl with bizarre interests and is traumatized to pieces, who word of god states is based off a serial killer character?) and that he thought it was kind of OOC. So, on and off I've been going "Chase should go crazy. Chase shouldn't go crazy". So, whether or not you will see a psycho!Chase.... it depends. For now, though, I'll try my best to play the woobie hand I've been given with her, even flat out going "Yay! She's going to be traumatized again!". XD

Multiple Chase Nightmare/Hallucination Sequences
Somewhat tying in with the above, Chase was supposed to have some nightmares/hallucinations given to us in loving detail. Basically, they'd revolve a lot around bloody organs, caused in part by seeing Robert Lerger's corpse in all its... erm, glory. But they would have taken other forms, too.

Some of them would have been humorous however, like having a dream where she dances with Michael Jackson in Thriller, or having another where the Chase-Aston-Marty-Michelle-Joshua group were basically characters in a classic zombie movie.

Chase-Dawne-Rekka Plotline
I can't really say much about this one as of right now. But yes, Chase, Dawne, and Rekka were supposed to have a bit of a storyline going before Dawne blew herself up and Rekka went inactive and got handed off to T-Fox. Basically they were going to have a bit of interaction (most likely a team-up) on the island that would have most likely end in chaos. In fact, KARAS originally wanted Rekka to enter Break Up And Break Down, but the appearance of Gracie caused a change of plans. There's nothing much really to say about this one right now, as I said. Maybe I'll add more later when I get further into Chase's character development or when I remember something that I forgot about it.

Where Did I Want To Go With The Whole Crush Thing At First?
The crush thing? Well, my original idea I was going with it sometime around Chase being first submitted to pre-game was that she finds her crush on the first day, and a team-up starts. The crush (who most likely doesn't reciprocate it) offers to protect her out of courtesy, but Chase decides that it isn't fair to let him protect her all the time so she decides to protect him as well, out of her own crush and because she thinks it's fair that way. I liked it simply because it was a fun dynamic.

That, and I thought that randomly having crushes on people all the time but being unable to act on them was a fun character trait. The above was only an extension of it.

"You Could Get All Kinds Of Money If You Just Looked Into The Porno Business And Not Killing People!"
^ Chase's thoughts, spoken aloud, upon realizing she is being broadcasted all over the world. While changing clothes. Yes, her only reaction. And spoken at the camera. Don't ask why I wanted her to say something like that to the camera.

Carol Drowning Death
WAY before Rocky had kill rights on Carol (like back when she was first submitted to pre-game), a common joke was that Carol was going to land in water, freak out, start drowning, and die. I guess that's what I always presumed her death was going to be until Rocky said Reiko should strangle her. Nothing else needs to be said.

Carol-Marty meet-up
I also wanted a Carol-Marty meet up, as well. He even asked if he could show up in Missing Those Lost, which I agreed to. But they never interacted in game. Oh well.

I guess that's it for now. I don't want this to go on too long, do I? Eh, if I think of more, I'll think of more. There's probably some I've forgotten about, or the ones I do remember I was kind of foggy when remembering and messed up the details. Please remind me if you notice something I forgot to mention or screwed up the details. XD

I've only got a couple, since many of my plans actually went off without a hitch.

Craig Hoyle dies before first rolls:
Yep. I was one of THESE people. However, after witnessing first-hand how Remi's death was executed, I decided that it would be a very low-impact situation, and a poor decision for the character.

Ivan and Aaron, sitting in a tree...:
No, not Hughes. Yes, Boismier. Before Aaron had to withdraw his SI due to real-life scheduling issues, Aaron and Ivan were supposed to meet up on the island and become fast companions, defending each other. And, well... Ivan was eventually going to kiss Aaron. It's hard to see looking back, but that was basically my plan for the character.

Brook is delayed a little bit:
Brook was always going to go batshit insane, which I decided about ten days after I made him. I wanted his descent into madness to be a lot slower though, showing over the course of 5 or 6 days without anything happening to Tiffany. Rolls were really dependent on this one. Instead, Tiffany got rolled earlier, and things ended up being a bit more abrupt. We were supposed to have a few more Flowerhead scenes (and some of the usual Brason), but alas.

Ivan and RJ have the best conversation ever:
We were so close to having this one, too, but time works in funny ways of screwing us over. Keep Yourself Alive involved a great setup with Imraan, but if things had gone faster, we might've led the standoff into a slight scene of comic relief where RJ and Ivan meet for a few moments. One of the boys really hates to talk, and the other boy can't, ???, hilarity ensues. Possibly.

Ooh, I'll post here instead of posting with my characters now that I'm back, I've got a lot to say really:

Clio - Normal Girl

Clio was never intended to be a player when I made her terrible terrible self back in pre-game. I only had plans for 2 characters back then, and I knew I'd probably get rolled fast, so Clio was gonna be my fodder I couldn't be fucked developing cause she was my first attempt at writing someone other than my SI and it wasn't going so well. Then she was rolled a gun, and I really couldn't resist making her play. People weren't happy about her playing, to say the least, I got a lot of flack about it.

Clio was gonna die on Day 3

Let the record state I had no intention of Clio ever making it past the halfway mark. Hell, when I decided she was gonna be a player, I had no intention of having her last past the 3rd day. The thing was, she was gonna get 2-3 kills, then fall victim to an even bigger threat (or at least that was the plan at the time)...Rachel Gettys. We planned this the moment she got rolled a gun and Rachel got rolled a Tambourine, they would fight and Clio would die. However, stuff arose, such as PA leaving and Rachel going in a different direction than we both anticipated, so I had to cancel that plan out. It got replaced with a better plan.

Brendan going player

Long story short, Brendan was gonna kill Chris Davidson with a blow-up doll/garrotte, I decided against it before the game started, and it went to Clio instead. NEXT.

Jacob dying in his first post

All the cool kids were gonna do it, so I thought I would too. I couldn't really get a voice for Jacob in pre-game, as evident by his 2 posts, so I thought "Eh, I'll just kill him in his first post". But then I started his game, and I really got a feel for him, so that plan was moot.

Paige - Revenge Quest for Jacob

Another one of the plans was that Jacob would be one of Reiko's first victims. Me and Rocky discussed this a little; Reiko would kill Jacob, Paige would grieve her little heart out, run away, and find someone who would be willing to kill her in revenge. Then, she was rolled first, and that plan was rendered moot.

Paige - Jacob's killer

This one had merit. Paige would meet Jacob (in their first post), and run/hug him, knocking him over. She'd cry for a while to him, then realise she knocked him onto one of those pesky rocks. She'd run, cry, etc, until one of my characters was rolled and Paige would be my fodder for swap. This fell out once I posted with Jacob first, and I realised I didn't want to kill him unless he was rolled.

Paige - Swimming Suicide

If Paige made it past Day 3 (which didn't happen, lol), then if she was rolled I'd have her appear at one of the beaches and mirror a v1-v2 death by going crazy, swimming out as far as she could as an attempt to escape, and get shot by the guard/collar detonated. Never happened, but I considered it for her Day 1 death for a few seconds.

Aston - Player right off the bat

This one was scarily close to coming to fruition. She'd make a plan, sort it all out, and then start shooting bitches. I even wrote up the post, but I was at school, so when I tried to post it, the computer ate the post. Really angry, but then I thought about it, and decided that just because Aston was a pre-made crazy waiting to happen, didn't mean I had to appeal to that part of her right off the bat.

Maf - Stalking Nick Reid

Okay, this one was just fairly simple, Maf would, instead of following Nathan, he'd follow Nick instead and see if he found Jennifer. However, I decided against the two meeting early. Maybe for Maf's inevitable death, they'll meet. That'll be sweet.

Nathan Price

Who is this guy? He was one of decoy's pregame characters, and I almost adopted him because at the time of applications, Jacob didn't exist yet except as a figment of Paige's imagination (not really, but I did plan for him to never appear in person. Invoking a Trope, you see), so I was to adopt the jerk Nathan Price. However, I kinda didn't get a feel for him, plus it would have involved a massive rewrite of his profile which I didn't feel like doing.

Hmm, let's see.

Chris Carlson: Player Avoider
This was the original plan I had from the start, and he followed it for a few threads. Basically Chris would have tried to stay away from anybody he saw out of fear that they'd try to kill him or that he'd have to kill someone he liked. When he ended up seeing Maria getting the crap beaten out of her by Phil, I figured it wouldn't be in character for him to just stand by, so there he goes flying out of a bush with brass knuckles. One thing led to another and he's temporarily joining a group with a wounded Maria that didn't last too long.

Jake Crimson Goes Player
This was the original plan I had for Jake and hints to it can be seen in his death thread. As the death thread shows, schizophrenia takes hold and he starts thinking that his cinderblock is talking to him. He'd then go on a quest inspired by his trust in the block to kill whoever he saw. It would have been a slightly humorous storyline that mostly involved him running around the island neglecting his needs until he got killed during his misadventures. When I saw that nobody was giving death rights, I realized that I had nothing I could do with Jake except throw him around the island taking ineffective swings at everyone. So I decided to give him an ending.

Meh, why not?

R.J. Lowe: God Warrior

This one, of course, was foreshadowed heavily, and if you've seen his wiki page, you already know about this plan, but originally, he was going to believe himself to be a vessel of the Archangel Michael, and proceed to smite him some sinners. Basically, a player hunter in the mold of what T-Fox had planned for Rekka: absolutely batshit crazy. This, of course, was a stupid fucking idea, and I regret having come up with it.

R.J. Lowe: Regular Warrior

This one wound up not happening simply for lack of options. I still wanted R.J. to be a player killer, and to be much more morally ambiguous than he turned out to be, and I still wish he had been. However, the only killers who were set to die at all during his lifespan had other plans for their deaths, and there was a general unwillingness for anyone else to die in self-defense. So, yeah, bit disappointing, but such is life.

Garrett Hunter would be so proud

Because I didn't want to see Aston die so early, I was forced to hero out my remaining non-flagship, Albert Lions, and feed him to Kris, which was a bummer, because I was hoping to take him places. Most notably, the ghost of Dougal was originally planned to be a sort of Tyler Durden-esque figure, even culminating in a hallucinatory fistfight that would end with Dougal going over the edge of a cliff and Albert becoming a Lulu-ish reluctant player. I'm semi-satisfied with how things turned out, particularly that whether it was actually Dougal's ghost or a hallucination was left ambiguous, but I still would've liked to have seen what would have come of this one.

Everything about Charlotte Cave

God, the more I think about her, the more depressing it is that I had to let her go, especially considering how close to being heroed R.J. came on day one rather than swapped. I never got a real chance to flesh her out in pregame, so I'd really hoped for the chance to do so over the course of V4, and seeing how little I got out of her, I can't help but feel she turned out to be a failure. I had a lot of ideas for her; rematch with Phil, facing off with Rachel Gettys, but with no real established pregame relationships because of how late I joined, she was pretty much doomed from the start to die early and wallow in obscurity.

Jason

• Jason Clarke = Neil Sinclair II: One of my original ideas was to have Jason lead another escape initiative. It never got off the ground because none of the ideas worked.
• Jason gets laid: Yeah, this was another pipe dream. Basically, Jason was going to meet up with a girl and decide that, given their likely deaths, to get it on, so to speak.

Jimmy

• Jimmy teams up with Alice: The idea here was that in Heartbeat Symphony, Jimmy would have realized that Alice Boucher was only teamed up with Sarah Atwell out of self preservation, and offer Alice to join up with himself and Alan. However, Sarah ended up not forcing Alice to try and kill Jimmy and Alan.
• Jimmy kills somebody:
• If Jimmy had lived long enough, I would have had him kill somebody out of sheer self-preservation. Given that one of Jimmy's big things was his pacifism, taking a life, even out of necessity, would have shaken him to the core.
• Jimmy teams up with Jeremy Franco: In this idea I considered, Jimmy would have met up with Jeremy Franco and convinced him to join the fight against Danya by invoking the trope of "Cut Lex Luthor a Check," noting that not only was Danya running a massive human rights violation, but also that he could have made himself just as much money legitimately and given himself a much better reputation by selling the technologies he had for legitimate purposes (an example would be using the collars to track felons)

Simon

• Simon teams up with Clio: An idea I considered but never even came close to executing was that Simon would meet up with Clio. Depending on when they met up, Simon would have either enabled Clio to stop her rampage, or joined her in it.

Tiffany

• Tiffany kills Felicia: Because Quincy was, until recently, torn between Felicia and Tiffany, Tiffany would have likely killed Felicia Carmichael "in self defense," "accidentally," or as "a mercy kill." By feigning innocence in the matter, Tiffany would shake off a competitor for Quincy and keep him as an ally.
• Tiffany kills Bridget In a pregame thread, Tiffany got into an altercation with Bridget Connolly. I was going to have them meet up, with Tiffany getting the upper hand. Given Bridget's skills, this was probably going to be in conjunction with Item #4 below.
• Tiffany kills Quincy: While Tiffany thought of Quincy mostly as a lackey, she was going to use him for all it was worth. However, if Quincy had been rolled first, she would have killed him after he was lethally wounded, as Quincy is no longer of any use, playing it off as a "mercy kill."
• Tiffany teams up with Maxwell Lombardi: After Tiffany killed Quincy, one idea was for Tiffany to team up with Maxwell Lombardi. She would do this by confronting him at his next kill, and stating that she isn't going to allow Maxwell to kill him/her. When pressed on why, Tiffany steals the kill and admits that it was because she wanted to do it. Double points if the victim was either Bridget or Felicia.

Nathan

• Nathan gets what was coming to him: Initially, Nathan Price was going to be my fifth character, and he was going to be one of the first to die, as he would do something incredibly stupid, believing it would work in his favor. However, the four-character cap came into play, as unlike v3, there were so many characters the cap was increased multiple times.

General

• Jason, Jimmy, Simon and Charlene team up: In another part of the escape attempt, all four of my characters would have ended up being in on it. The idea was with Jason's general knowledge, Charlene's popularity, Jimmy's knowledge of psychology, and Simon's computer skills, the four of them would be if not unstoppable, then at least a force to be reckoned with.

Oh man. I had some pretty awful ideas for Rena back in the day. Let's see. There was...

Useful Rena: Yeah, Rena wasn't always supposed to be the crying mess she wound up as. She wasn't going to be very strong or anything, but she was going to have some tough moments and basically be at least somewhat productive. Of course, the second she set foot on the island her doom magnet made that pretty impossible. So instead we got the lovely tragic Rena we wound up with today. Poor, poor Rena.

Rena kills Raine Schrawz: Back when Raine got rolled the first time, Chibinanashi and I sorta worked out a plan where Raine, Ridley, and Rena went to the tunnels and got separated, which would lead to Rena accidentally smashing Raine over the head with her shillelagh. Raine wound up getting heroed last minute, so instead we went to the tunnels and Rena stepped in dear old Rekka. Honestly, I am so glad this never happened. For one, it's probably more impossible than I thought, what with Rena's lack of strength, and secondly, Raine and Ridley dying led to Rena actually getting sent out of the game in a way I liked, and personally, I thought their conjoined death was very beautiful. Speaking of dying...

Rena dies miserable and alone: The death that Rena ended up with was actually a death I had working for my Program character, Megan Jacobson. Rena's death was never supposed to be so, well, happy. Originally I wanted her to get shot begging for her life, because I thought it fit her classic, distressed, pathetic character. But when I actually heroed Rena, the death didn't feel right anymore. Rena had gone through so much crap on the island, a lot of which I induced, that I felt terrible. I wanted her to go out with some dignity. So instead of having her abandon her teammates and get cornered, I decided to have her leave on a mission and decide to attack someone who she knew was a killer. I honestly think the death worked out a thousand times better than I planned, and I'm glad Rena got a little bit of joy before she bit the dust.

Rena punches Dustin Royal in the face: Okay this wasn't really a plan as it was an urge, but somewhere inbetween getting yelled at in the tunnels and called psycho by Sunil, I was really considering having Rena just get fed up and punch Dustin. It would have been totally out of character, but it was comedic gold. Luckily, I got rid of her before she would have logically reached her breaking point, so Dustin's prettyboy face remains unpunched. Although he is kinda dead now...so...yeah.

This post has been a long time coming, so here goes ...

It is common knowledge that Simon Telamon's issued weapon was the key to Storage Locker 361. The location and contents of the locker, were ... well, this alternate post should tell you everything you need to know. It takes place at the Groundskeeper's Hut on Day 3, and assumes that Simon was the first person to arrive after the area was cleared from the Danger Zones.

(Note: this post would have been Simon's next recorded activity after the thread Twists and Turns)
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As Simon ran through the area, the first announcement still ran through his head.

"... Clio Gabriella, shot Chris Davidson right in the head ... tenth to be wiped off the map was Petrushka Ivanova as Miss Gabriella chalked up her second kill ..."

Unlike some of the other students, Simon was having trouble equating Clio, sweet, viviacious Clio Gabriella, with that of a heartless killer. All the same, in spite of his admittedly scant knowledge of SOTF, he grudgingly recognized one thing: Danya was, if not forthright, honest in a sense, meaning if Danya said that Clio Gabriella killed Chris Davidson and Petrushka Ivanova, then Clio Gabriella killed Chris Davidson and Petrushka Ivanova. This led Simon to play the small game of denial - not of Clio's actions, but of her motivations.

Okay, Chris, don't know him - maybe he attacked her and she had no choice (This fact was untrue: Chris had no intention or ability to kill anybody) What about Petrushka? Was that a mercy kill? (Now he was really grasping at straws - while somewhat likely that Petrushka had been severly injured, it didn't jibe with Petrushka's "utter lack of fighting spirit.") That was pretty much what was rolling through his head as he ran away from the warehouse. Enough so that he wasn't paying attention to the burn in his legs ... well leg, but still ... it was only when he looked up when he finally paid heed to something other than his girlfriend - it was small building just ahead of him, a fact he was able to register just in time to prevent himself from unceremoniously crashing into the building.

Huffing and puffing, Simon approached the building, checking his map, as Danya finished off his second announcement:

"Alright, kiddies, all the current dangerzones are cleared. But, it wouldn't be any fun if we had none, so I'm going to go ahead and name The Infirmary, The Key and The Mansion as our latest dangerzones. Don't pull a Codreanu, folks - haul ass!"

His collar wasn't beeping, so it meant he wasn't at the Infirmary, the only other building on the map that the small place could have been was the Groundskeeper's Hut, which had thankfully just been cleared, so it meant that nobody was there to get the drop on him this time.

Simon slowly creaked open the door and turned on his flashlight, pointing the small beam of light around the inside of the building. Nothing of note, really. Just a bunch of shelves, tools, and lockers, like number 3 ... 6 ...

Wait. That number seemed familiar to him. Simon patted his pockets, eventually fishing out his issued key - with the number "361" stamped on it, just like on the locker. Simon slowly approached it, careful not to trip on anything that might be there, and placed the they into the lock and turned it.

Click

Simon pushed on the handle, opening the beige door to reveal an open brown box, containing an empty pistol, six magazines, and a pamphlet. Picking up the pamphlet, he thumbed through it, noting the important facts: the gun was a Lahti L-35, it used 9mm ammo, there was a procedure for reloading and there were safe ways to handle it. Simon breathed a sigh of relief. It was weird that he felt so, but at least now, he had a better chance should someone attack him. It might not make him completely, but it would be enough to at least dissuade some people from attacking (cough Teo and Nick cough).

He then loaded the gun, placed the instructions and other magazines into his bag, and looked around for a bit, cringing a little at the girl laying on the bed with a huge hole in her neck, and left, no less careful, but much more relaxed, knowing that maybe the Gods had something good for him after all.

((Simon Telamon continued in the main story ...))
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This piece of information was revealed to me through PM by Toben after Simon escaped with his key, which made knowledge of the locker moot, as the locker was built strong enough so that the the only other way to open the locker was by explosion, which would have likely destroyed the enclosed weapon anyway. Had Simon gone about this route, he would have become much more able to defend himself resulting in the following changes possible:

• In "Meet Again," it might have been Simon who had killed Clio (in self defense, as Clio would have shot at him, but with the same slow death).
• In "... Because I Can't Make It On My Own," Gracie Wainwright's death would definitely have been much more streamlined, as Simon would have likely shot at Nick, but a tackle from someone (likely Teo) would have caused the shot to go wild, killing Gracie instead.
• In fact, Simon's whole style of play might have been changed, as Simon would have been much more able to kill. A second meeting with Clio might have resulted in an alliance, where Simon joined Clio in her rampage, and possibly Simon instead of Maxwell getting it on with Clio in the thread "In and Out."

[Grand Moff Hissa]

[+] What Could Have Been Part Two

Maria goes after Omar: Cuz Omar killed her friend and she was really pissed off about it. But sadly Omar died. D:

Maria reunites with Dustin: For the most hilariously awkward reunion ever.

Maria totally does it with Duncan, like, for real

Maria stops being sad and pathetic: At some point Duncan was supposed to visit Maria in her dreams and go "Hey. Cut it out." and she'd be like "Okay." And then she'd still be sad (and occasionally loopy, but more the mentally broken kinda funny but still pretty sad considering the circumstances loopy,) but not the black hole of self-loathing and suffering she turned into.

Maria throws down with evil!Max again: ROUND THREE. FIGHT!

Maria, Sierra and Julian meet at the Sawmill and shit gets REALLY awkward: At one point everyone was converging on the Sawmill like it was made of beer and hookers while Maria was trying to kill herself. So of course, Warren's friend and bandmate, the girlfriend of the guy who killed Warren, and the guy who killed the guy who killed Warren would've ended up in the same place (and as a bonus, the team that the girl who Maria accidentally killed belonged to.)

Maria dropkicks Jimmy Brennan in the ass: Because she said she'd totally do it.

Petrushka gets a violin: But unfortunately Sally ran off with it. What a bitch.

Ray stays on the island after ensuring the rest of his crew makes it off:

I wanted to leave him on and start a late-game player hunting spree. Rolls dictated that this was a bad idea.

Joe meets up with Rose again

I have no clue how I was going to handle this, and the realization of it is partly why I decided to swap Rose in for one of the times I got rolled.

Yes, now I have a reason to post here.

Zach picks up a broken shotgun and goes all passive for real.

Dom's character Courtney threw her shotgun as hard as she could, breaking it in the process. I was going to have Zach pick it up, knowing full well he could never use it.

Not sure why I haven't done this with Maxwell sooner, seeing as there is a crapload of stuff I never got to do with him, but oh well. Better late than never I guess.

Maxwell decides to play almost immediately: I had pretty much always intended on Maxwell becoming a player since his conception. However, I had originally planned on him deciding to play barely minutes after having just woken up. It wasn't until later on that I realised that it didn't really make sense for a guy like Maxwell to give in so easily, so I decided that for a while he'd be something of a jerkass antihero until he finally decides "Fuck it, I'm going to play this thing for real". And this is what I was doing at first, however...

Maxwell decides to play much later one: After I had decided on this new direction, I had originally intended on him turning player at a much MUCH later stage in the game. My plan was that he'd join up with a doomed escape group of some description for a while until it becomes obvious that it isn't going to work, or if something goes terribly wrong and he barely escapes with his life intact (the Liz Polanski fiasco would be a perfect example of what I was thinking of.) After which, he'd then decide that since escape was impossible that he may as well start playing anyway. Why didn't I go through with this idea in the end? Well... To be honest, I kinda got a LITTLE impatient, seeing as I was anxious to start writing him as a player. So in the end, I decided to have him start playing early in the game anyway. Oh well, at least I can comfort myself with the fact that No Rest for the Wicked turned out to be one of his better threads.

Maxwell feels regret for his kills... At first: I'm still not sure whether or not it was a good idea to have Maxwell not feel remorse for all the death he causes, seeing as that tends to be one of the more polarising aspects of his character, if not THE most polarising aspect. Whilst I had always intended on him becoming a heartless bastard, I did actually consider the idea of him feeling guilty for his first couple of kills before he got used to playing. So why did I decide against this in the end? To put it simply, after noticing that most of the early players seemed to be taking the sympathetic antivillain route (Kris and Clio being two names that immediately spring to mind), I felt that it'd be more interesting to have a character who actually feels quite thrilled, and is more horrified by the fact that they actually enjoyed it then the fact that they just killed someone. Not that I don't like villains who're sympathetic or anything, after all some of the best villains in fiction have felt extremely guilty about their actions. It's just that at the same time, I've always felt that for every antivillain there should be a complete monster to compare them to, and for V4 I decided that Maxwell would be that monster. And, in a sense, I guess I kind of succeeded in that regard.

Maxwell as a Magnificent Bastard: Yup. Let that sink in for a moment... I know it's tricky to believe, but I had honestly intended on him being a Magnificent Bastard at first. However, very early on, it became very apparent that this was far from the truth. Whilst he had the look and the style sorted, he was way too smug and slimy to be considered one. Not to mention the fact that he was nowhere NEAR as smart or charming as he thought he was. So in the end, he turned out to be a Smug Snake. A dangerous Smug Snake, mind you, but a Smug Snake nevertheless.

Maxwell and Raidon's rivalry: Whilst I was able to have them meet eventually, and in the end Raidon ended up being the one who killed Maxwell, I had originally intended on the two of them meeting much early on. Grim approached me with the idea of Raidon and Maxwell being bitter rivals more-or-less around the same time that he gave me Simon's deathrights, and whilst i'm glad that we finally managed to have them meet in the end it's a shame that I didn't have a chance to develop their rivalry much earlier on.

Maxwell fights Reiko... Again: Not much to say here apart from the fact that I regret that Maxwell and Reiko never got around to having one last scrap.

Maxwell forms an alliance: I was VERY close to actually putting this plan into action, but sadly the rolls killed Maxwell moments before it could happen. Basically, at some point, I wanted Maxwell to form an alliance of some description with one or more fellow players. Preferably with him taking a lead role, seeing as he's got a massive ego and everything. Whilst for the most part this was just a simple thought, I did speak with a couple of handlers on the idea. The first being Inky, where I half-jokingly suggested the idea of Maxwell and Clio teaming up after the events of Out and In. The next was Decoy, who suggested a team-up between Tiffany Chanders and Maxwell, and I was starting to kind of like this idea until Tiffany got rolled. After Decoy, I was then eventually approached by Holly who suggested the idea that Maxwell forms a trio with her and Ema. This idea very nearly came to light, and we actually talked quite a lot about how it was going to turn out, but sadly Maxwell was rolled just as Hayley was about to approach him. Oh well...

Maxwell gets killed by Maria Graham: Whilst there were a lot of character who I wouldn't have minded seeing bump Maxwell off (Including Sarah Xu, Reiko Ishida and Ivan Kuznetsov), Maria was by far the most likely candidate, with Raidon being a close second. The idea which I had grown to like for a very long time involved Maxwell fighting Raidon on the edge of a cliff, with a dying/badly injured Maria lying on the sidelines. It would then go more-or-less the same way that his actual death went, the biggest change being that when Maxwell is about to smash Raidon's head in Maria fires her flaregun and hits Maxwell in the back, setting his clothes alight and causing him to stumble over the edge of the cliff into the jagged rocks below. However, Maria died before Maxwell did, so this idea never came to light.

Different variations on Maxwell's death: I came up with many different ideas for how Maxwell's death could play out, nearly all of which centred on the idea of someone deliberately causing him to tumble off the edge of something high (As you might of guessed, I'm a big sucker for the Disney Villain Death trope. I don't care if it's a cliche, damnit!). One idea I toyed with was that rather then the cliff or the mountain, he would fall off the top of an apartment building onto a greenhouse, and spends his last few seconds of life crawling across the floor in total agony. I also considered the idea of having him survive the initial fall off the cliff, only to die slowly as his body lies broken and irreparable on a series of jagged rocks.

Maxwell meets Ivan and Tabi: This got foreshadowed a lot, but nothing ever came to light. Haven't got much else to add apart from the fact that it's a shame that I never got to RP with either character.


And... I think I'll stop for now. I might add some more later, but for the most part these were the main things that I never got around to doing with Maxwell.

Ehhhh, alrighty. What could have been *screen goes wavy*

Ethan Kent as a villain: So I originally pitched the generator plan to the mods a few weeks after I joined around like, July I think. I didn't hear back from them by the time v4 started so I was like "Oh well, I guess they didn't like it. I'll try to make Ethan a villain since I don't know what to do with him." This accounts for why he was such a creeper his first two threads. Eventually the mods said I could go ahead with the generator plan and I had to make him a little less hateable after The Manslut the Cocktease and the Lover. I'm actually sort of pleased that he started as villainous because it made him this unlikable, cocky, pretty morally dark character who ended up saving a bunch of people. Especially because he did it for selfish reasons and doesn't give any fucks about the people he saved.


Rhory Anne and Ethan in The House of the Rising Sun: Okay, so the plan was to have Rhory Anne be Ethan's companion in the ranger station and she was going to be the one to build the generator after he died. That's why Ethan and Rhory had a past together. However, I'd fallen in love with Feo so the plan changed to have both ladies. James went away though and Feo became the sole companion to finish the job.


Isabel is suicidal and tortured: Isabel was supposed to become hopelessly depressed and become suicidal. There's a little of that in the beginning, but the mods recommended I have someone still in on the generator plan after Ethan went KABOOM and she was the best candidate left from my characters so she got sent to the escape plan and there wasn't much time for her to be suicidal. I also thought it might be interesting to see her get tortured at some point because there's just so much you could do with someone afraid of touch, but I never really went anywhere with that.


Nick as a creepy heartless killer: This was just stupid. Glad it didn't happen.

Nick jumps with Jessica in The City on the Edge of Forever: I never imagined Nick would outlive Jessica so I had a plan to kill him that involved her when he was rolled. The problem was that he never was rolled and when she was set to die I wanted him to die with her. He was supposed to die unrolled by jumping with her. A few people who knew my plan talked me out of it, so he's still alive.

Okay, sweet. I just remembered this thread, and, well, since V4's over now and there's a bunch of stuff I have to share, I figured I'd bump it up again.

Here we go:

Aaron:

*Aaron is a legit protagonist:

This one was abandoned fairly completely by the time V4 had started, but for a while I was going to take Aaron's delusions of grandeur the other way and make him a real good guy, albeit an insufferable and less-than-competent one. Basically, he'd've tried the same sort of stuff except without the edge of malice or the scheming contingencies. The problem was, by the end of pregame, I'd realized just how much of a selfish jerk Aaron was, and making him be decent and altruistic would've been derailing him. Instead, I moved on to:

*Aaron goes paranoid, holes up with guns and tries to outlast people by keeping a low profile:

Basically, Aaron was never supposed to be a leader. At the start of the game, I was gonna have him alienate a bunch of people, try for a weapon, then go off to set up a base camp somewhere. At that point, he'd basically try to scare people out/set himself up a little improvised fortress, and devolve further and further into paranoia as the game went on. In practice, this idea lasted maybe three posts, because Aaron got a group dumped on him who were willing to follow him, and someone (I think Tom?) planted the idea of forming a squad in his head. Again, refusing would've been derailing his character, so I rolled with it and ended up where stuff ended up.

*Aaron captures a player, holds a kangaroo court:

I really, really liked this one and regret it not happening. Basically, Aaron was fairly judgmental about players at several points. I wanted him to get one down, then basically run them through a horribly half-baked faux-legal proceeding before coaxing one of his allies into executing the captive (keeping his own name off the announcements, of course). The problem here was that the group moved slowly, players were popular targets, and we had a bunch of other scenes to get through. I don't think I ever even raised this one with more than a couple of the other handlers of Aaron's group.

*Aaron dies early/unrolled/in some way he didn't:

Aaron was never supposed to live until the final ten. Originally, I'd planned to kill him before the last couple members of his group. I don't know how many people know this, but Aaron's basically my least favorite character I wrote during V4. I kept looking for good times/places to kill him, but didn't end up doing anything for a few reasons.

First off, he had a group, and I really loved working with the handlers in it. His plotline and theirs were intertwined pretty majorly, and I didn't want to screw anyone over by dropping the bottom out of that. I also just liked writing with them, even if I wasn't such a fan of my own stuff. I basically decided to keep Aaron around until he got rolled or it helped someone else in the group's plotline for him to die.

Then, though, the group's plans kept shifting and evolving and Aaron just stubbornly refused to get rolled. I'd already used my cards earlier in the game, too, so I couldn't kill him off in a way that really meant anything or got anywhere satisfactory. I figured maybe when his group got down to one other person, I'd let them take him out.

I was actually discussing killing him, um, the second time Kimberly was rolled. Jonny talked me out of it, though. I think Jonny talked me out of killing Aaron at least four times, and he made the right call in the end, because I was pretty pleased with the ending I actually found him. But yeah, I kept getting frustrated and almost killing Aaron, but it never quite shaped up.

*Aaron goes completely bonkers, believes the island is D&D and he is a wizard or something dumb like that:

This is, um, what I was thinking when I wrote Aaron's profile. He was going to assess strategy in terms of Dungeons and Dragons modifiers and Detect Evil on his classmates and all kids of phenomenally idiotic stuff like that. Thankfully, pregame dragged on for ages and some handlers clubbed some taste into me.

---

Jennifer:

*Jennifer gets shanghaied into being a killer's assistant:

Basically, Jennifer was originally supposed to get bullied into working with a killer, and either helping them or maybe doing the brunt of their dirty work for them. She's not very assertive, so the theory was she'd maybe just go along with it and fall deeper and deeper into things until it was too late to get free. Eventually, she'd either get manipulated into taking a bullet for her ally or would grow a spine just in time to get gunned down for it.

I actually kinda like the concept, still, and was super pleased to see something similar go down with Sarah and Alice. For Jennifer, it got dropped because, by the end of pregame, she hadn't become any more assertive but it had become clear that her personality and coping strategies wouldn't accommodate that sort of thing.

*Jennifer kills to save someone:

This was Jennifer-as-villain plan #2. Basically, the thought was, as the game goes on, one of her friends gets badly injured or falls ill. Giving up hope, she figures the best way to save them is to end the game as quickly as possible, which basically amounts to actually playing. Again, this one was pretty much totally discarded by the time V4 proper rolled around, except as an extremely unlikely possibility.

*Jennifer dies trying to save someone:

One of the deaths I'd thought of for Jennifer involved her basically trying to intervene to save someone from a player. Basically, she'd try to walk up and talk the player down/coax them into letting their intended victim go, almost certainly with fatal consequences. This was one of the two deaths I'd loosely come up with for Jennifer, and would've maybe even worked with the other. I'm not gonna list the other here, 'cause I like it enough to use it someday (in fact, I made a character on Mini specifically to die it, but she went and avoided getting killed too. ><)

*Jennifer stays on the island:

Jennifer was one of my favorite characters to write. I had a ton of fun with her, and, when some handlers pulled the stuff that ended up resulting in the rescue and when the staff figured out that was coming, I decided to toss her in its way. I actually considered leaving her behind pretty seriously, though. In the end, everyone she had to interact with except Maf got rolled in one fell swoop, and I was pretty sure she didn't have the momentum or storyline to go far, and I suspected the rolls were gonna bite me, and I basically just thought she'd be more interesting as a survivor. So... yeah, she ended up on the boats.

---

Gonna leave it there for now. Had a boatload of stuff for Kimberly, but I think that'll have to wait for another time when I'm more focused.

Haha, okay.

David Meramac and Peter Pan

Not sure what was up with this, but I totally intended for there to be some kind of recurring Peter Pan motif in David's posts. Instead he just ran around being scared just constantly. I didn't really know what I was doing with him, though, so I guess it's not really too much of a loss.

Simon Grey and Liz Polanski

Simon and Raidon were supposed to both me flagships for me, but somewhere along the way I got really bored with Simon. I really, really wish I hadn't decided to kill him prior to Liz Polanski's rebellion--otherwise it would have been him, not Belle, defending Liz, which would probably have been a way better ending for him. I'm sort of disappointed that all his death really did was provide incentive for Raidon to fight Maxwell.

Mirabelle the Player-killer

This was my original idea for Mirabelle--she was going to start hunting down players, and then come to realize she liked fighting them more than she liked helping others and be troubled by that. But instead she hooked up with Polanski.

Mirabelle and Garret

I was kind of cool with the idea of Belle dying, but the idea of her and Garrett teaming up and having a romance would have been nice. We decided they were friends-turned-enemies sort of off-the-cuff and it turned out to be really awesome. I think we could have had a good thing going if I'd let Belle live, and it was actually really tough to decide whether or not to go through with it after that point.

Raidon joins SotF

This was actually the original idea I had for Raidon. His time on the island was gradually going to deprive of his faith and his morals and ultimately, if he won, leave him shattered and broken, leading him to demand that Danya let him join the crew who make SotF happen so that he had a reason for how his life had fallen apart around him. Two problems with that, of course: 1) Raidon didn't live, and 2) Raidon met up with Julian Avery and Mizore Soryu, who slowly redeemed him as a character so even if he had made it to the end he probably would have tried to kill Danya. Yeah.

*Resurrected for V5*

Theo kills himself in his first post:
Yeah, really. Not lying! I was tempted. I was really really really flip-floppy on which kids I liked best, so for a time I was tempted to have Theo, the then-unfavorite, kill himself to secure first death because why not. This was obviously not what I decided to do, abd whileI think it would be interesting to see what happened if he hadn't killed two people on Day 1, I am so glad I decided to not waste a character I have so far been somewhat happy.

Theo decides to play without Hansel involved in any way, tries to be smart:
Okay, so for a little bit I was tempted to have Theo go, "I DUN WANNA BE A STATISTIC" and play so he'd be famous or something. He was going to punt someone off a cliff to hide his ownership of a gun, which might've made sense. I changed my mind when Hansel got involved (which was an example of a plan that worked) and ultimately my ideas had changed and I preferred the idea of a freakout to a calculated killer.

I will update again when other plans fall through or whatever, but for now, feel free to post since presumably some plans/ideas for V5 have already been dropped.

Ah, I had a few that I quickly abandoned, glad there's some kind of outlet for these scrapped ideas!

Jaquilyn ignores Joachim, and remains hidden in her room:
Wow. That would have been boring. I first thought that in her terrified state, she would ignore it, but then figured that she'd been scared enough in my first post, and would probably realize she needed to do something. I considered having her retreat out her window, but then I was leaving another handler with no characters to interact with. So she yelled at him, he pooped in her bathroom, and now they are fabulous allies. So glad I didn't have her ignore him, her relationship with Joachim has been great to toy around with, me and Bik are having a great time, and people seem to be enjoying trying to dissect their relationship.

Cassidy and Gavin go Macbeth and Lady Macbeth:
I had an idea where Gavin, who was a very calm, almost chilling character, would begin playing the game. Cassidy would then become an accessory, and the two would bring hell to the game. Then, right before they have a moral event horizon, if I understand what that meants, Matt Masters shows up. Rolls would determine what would happen next. If Matt was rolled, Gavin would kill Matt, and Cassidy would continue with Gavin. If Gavin was rolled, Matt would kill Gavin, and Cassidy would go back with Matt, forever regretting whatever she might have done. If Cassidy was rolled, she would commit suicide while Matt and Gavin fought, unable to choose a side.

Anyway, it turned out that G.O.R. already had some other, rather specific plans for Gavin, and this had to be abandoned. That was actually more of a relief than anything because this story itself was a stretch. I PM's a few handlers after first rolls to see if anybody would want to establish a similar story with the deaths of their characters, Bik was down for it, but then I decided it just wasn't a good way to go with the character. This later became the accidental death of David.

If it seems like Cassidy abandons Gavin, Ruby, and Amy soon after meeting them, it's because I realized I'd joined a storyline I didn't think my character fit into. I decided that getting her out of it sooner rather than later was better than keeping her in longer and finding a different reason to pull her.

Jaquilyn meets Miranda and they fight:
I quickly realized that emotional stories full of characterization are superior (well, to me at least) to stories only full of action. There was also no easy way to end this scene without killing one of the characters, so the idea was abandoned. This idea was considered before I had Jaq answer the door for Joachim in the first thread, so it wasn't even considered for very long.

He was going to punt someone off a cliff to hide his ownership of a gun

That seems kinda extreme.

So since Nina is dead, I'mma share some stuff I wanted to do with her.

Nina Clarke, Player-hunter:
I probably made this really obvious in her profile, but this was Nina's purpose at the conceptual stage. She was going to make it to Day 2, realize people were playing, and try and hunt down murderers and bring them to justice and by that I mean kill them. This was eventually dropped, though I sort of regret it; I toyed with it for a while but I never really found a place for her to go, "killers must DIE" though there were hints of it with Mara/Finn, and I nodded to it in her death.

Nina Clarke, Escapee:
This was something I considered for a bit. Nina was going to meet up with a certain escape planner, and they'd have fun-time-escape-fun-times. I ended up deciding I didn't want to do a big escape thing, because I thought it'd be easier for a new writer to just do normal stuff i.e. get killed. But it was in the works for a while.

Nina Clarke, self-defense killer:
This was something I thought it'd be fun to do but never had real plans for it. I wanted Nina to be attacked and, in the process of defending herself, kill her assailant. I never really found an opportunity for this, and it just sort of slipped my mind since I already had a major killer going on.

Nina Clarke, someone with an actual fucking plot:
Nina's issue for me was that she had an awesome start and end and the middle was gooey and malformed. I was constantly looking for someone to pair up with, but I always seemed to find that the groups just didn't really work in-character, so Nina always ran and/or walked away. Her interactions with basically everyone who isn't Maddie ended in more or less the same way; she leaves them behind, and it hurt her in a lot of ways, in my opinion.

So since Theo died I'm going to revive this because I like talking about my ideas that have fallen through.

Theo kills Steven: So initially I offered to Toben for Theo to meet up with and kill Steven, in what would likely have been a similar scene to Steven's actual death. Toben eventually opted to go with KK instead, which I think worked out really well for him anyways.

Theo kills Hansel: Basically ever since Deep Breath Deep Breath AKA Theo and Hansel's start, whoever got rolled first would've been killed by the other. Obviously rolls decided that'd be me.

Theo meets Hansel, fights him and both live: Theo and Hansel's relationship was prettty important as is, but me and Naft really wanted to have them get into multiple confrontations before one died. Sadly we didn't get a chance; I think pre-crash we were going to meet up, but then things came up and we got bogged down and I got rolled.

Theo repents: Yes I know this is a terribly-easy-to-screw-up story arc and I would've probably made a mess of it, but initially after I decided Theo would play, I figured after a bloody Day 1 he'd realize he was a dumbass and try and make up for it. Then Interstice of Time happened and I opted to change his plan back to playing.

Theo watches Alice die: When Alice was rolled, I talked to boogie and we decided that Theo and Alice would meet up, discuss things, then someone (no idea who) would come in and take a shot at Theo but kill her instead. Not sure where this would've led, but it might've been interesting. Then Alice was heroed.

Gwen is fodder and has a camera rant: This was my plan early in pregame when Theo and Nina were my big two and Gwen wasn't established yet and I wasn't sure what I was doing with her yet so she was just there. I was going to have a thread where she went on a long camera rant and jumped off a cliff (this was my plan for so long I wasn't even sure there'd be cliffs to jump from). I even had a rought draft written for it. Then Gwen met Group Nap Time, I realized she was actually my best character and realized I probably shouldn't fodder her.

Gwen throws sharp thing, goes crazy: I initially toyed with the idea of having Gwen get like a knife or axe or something and kill somebody by throwing it at them in terror before snapping and beginning to kill people. Then I decided that would be dumb and threw it out.

Oh, this looks fun. I really only have stuff for Natali, since Marcus was adopted and is still alive and all.

Natali wakes up in Deep Breath, Deep Breath: Yes, this very nearly happened. I almost had Natali wake up in the clearing while Theo and Hansel were fighting, and hide in the bushes until Theo left, whereupon she would have popped out of the bushes to offer Hansel some first aid. Obviously, this would have changed both her and Hansel's early game pretty drastically and it's still fun to think about.

The many deaths of Natali: I bounced around a lot of ideas before settling on the death I went with when Natali was rolled. One was that she would commit suicide by drowning herself in the Dead Man's Grotto, another was that she would accidentally run into Adam or Maynard's weapon and bleed out (probably Maynard's, since I can't seem to stop traumatizing the poor guy).

Natali takes a weapon and runs: This was just a brief thought, since it didn't really fit with her character, but I considered having Natali try to steal Adam or Maynard's weapon and abandon them. I never pitched the idea to Toben or Sansa, and abandoned it pretty quickly.

I can't weigh in much yet since Garrett's still alive and Alda's just beginning for me, but I do have some conceptual things that I wrote waaaaaaayyyy back before V5 even started pre-game.

Garrett as legitimately emotionless: This was a big dumb thing that I'm really glad I didn't go with, but instead of having Garrett's emphasis on emotional control be an ethical/philosophical thing, I was going to have Garrett develop a pronounced case of ASD that would essentially render him emotionless. He'd be a much more selfish character, and a lot of his conflict would have resided around genuine confusion over how people felt or why they were acting the way they did.

In short? Really dumb. I'm glad I went a different direction, because this basically strips out everything that makes Garrett Garrett.

Garrett as the Island Shrink: There's a nod to this in Garrett's original profile when it mentions his interest in developmental psychology. That was kind of a hanger-on note that I'm not proud of, though it was part of a bigger picture. At one stage, Garrett became super-into psychology instead of philosophy. This would have accented his analytical side, but also made him a bit more compassionate. This Garrett was genuinely interested in helping everyone instead of the more morally grey Garrett I'm attempting to write now. He never would have ended up in Garrett's current story-line. All in all, I actually really like this concept and hope to refurbish it some version, especially since I'm somewhat unhappy with a lot of Garrett's core aspects.

A snap shot of what this sort of character would have entailed includes hunting down players and hysterical classmates to try and talk them down. A lot of the notes Garrett's taken probably would have been made as well, but with a different tone and with deeper psychological influence. He'd also have stayed with groups more and spent less time on his own. In some respects, he would have been similar to what Imehal ended up doing with Carlon Wheeler, though with the religious overtones replaced with more secular therapeutic ones.

Garrett Who Never Got Help: This concept went on to become a portion of Gabriel Munez. One potential avenue for Garrett's development as a character was to simply leave him angry and unloved. Removing the intervention from his grandfather, Garrett could have grown up to be very impulsive, rebellious, and all around nasty. I wanted to try and write a very mean, angry character whose internal monologue was just as hateful to himself as he was to everyone else. I don't think it would have been executed well, and on reflection he was rather flat. I like that I shelved the idea and let Gabriel grow into it rather than forcing it on Garrett.

Garrett Without An Accident: This one's probably my biggest regret. I toyed with the idea of having Garrett grow into his problems organically, but I got frustrated with the process and I wanted to be done with the profile, so I lazily wrote in what is really a ham-fisted excuse for him to feel negatively about his emotions. Tragedy is a crutch at times, and I think that shines really brightly in his profile. I wish I'd gone for a more natural process that gave him more development, and this regret extends in some ways towards his pre-game relationship with Mirabella as well, since looking back my side of things there is also more than a bit hammy and cliche. Organics is something I've tried to emphasize with the rest of my characters since, to varying degrees of success, but I don't think I'll ever stop regretting taking the easy way out with Garrett. It's a tough lesson to look back on.

*looks at this thread*

*cries*

I keep thinking that I've posted here before. Few of mine:

Baxter and Hansel have opposite arcs: This was my initial, very first plan when I created Brandon, other than having two characters to represent different aspects of myself in various ways. I wanted Hansel to be a villain, but a sympathetic one, one that people could look at and go "Huh, poor fella" on some level, where Baxter would go full hero mode but be a constant jackass fuckwit about it. The idea was that a murderer could still be someone you could root for and a black-and-white good-guy could still be someone you loathed.

I mostly blame Rugga for that idea, seeing as it was after reading Ethan in full that I went to work on Baxter, and that was where the idea stood.

Brandon vs. Cody: This is an idea that I didn't even run by Ricky, because Mimi and I started to chat and realized we were soul-mates. Essentially, I was going to have Baxter hang with Cody (and TBH's Mike, too) and basically be a thorn in Cody's side. Anything Cody'd suggest, Baxter would antagonize, just to get that conflicting Alpha-male story that I rarely see in these kinds of things. While I'd still love to see a competing alpha male storyline, I will never regret what Mimi and Summer brought into my life with the arc that we got to play out, and it remains one of the best things I've written.

Baxter crashes multiple threads: I joked about this in chat a bunch, but I seriously wanted to pull a Han and run through three different scenes on the island, tying them all somewhat chronologically together. Horrible idea. Do not do this.

Dogtown: This was an idea that is still fresh in my mind, and I might enact it for TV-V2 or something. I wanted to take what Kilmarnock did with Bloodgarden - that is, a long thread involving multiple characters and arcs - but flip it so that it was 'heroic' rather than villainous.

Eeeeh, fuck it, hopping on this bandwagon.

Venice - Bodyguard: Pretty self-explanatory, being that it just involved her protecting her friends by any means whatever needed doing. It mostly involved hitting people with chairs and stools for some reason. I thought it'd be kinda lame if she just felt sad about all her friends dying around her and then not do anything about it, so this was probably the closet thing to happening if she lived longer.

Venice - Player Hunter: Kinda related to the above, I only teased around this for a bit before realizing she'd have to leave people behind to truly be successful and being alone suuuuuuuucks. Didn't really bother with this one too much, since I couldn't really see it being all that successful.

Venice - Escapee/Survivor: I always thought escapes were a neat idea, so knowing only one could make it out on an escape boat, I had to really consider which one would be more likely to benefit from it. If it had all come down to it, I probably would've picked Venice, since I think it would have fit much better. I think she would have come out the one who could maintain and be stable out of my two kids, and I figured a happier ending is a good one for these type of things. I was also thinking she'd be a day care worker or a school nurse when she started working.

Venice - Death by intentionally head-butting her axe: Yep. Man, I really appreciate those of you who sent me death ideas, I truly do.

Well I was going to make a hipster egotist bassist who was going to be a cowardly player and hit and run people before they had a chance to defend themselves but then his sister got banned for catfishing and i don't know about you but that totally killed it for me.

NUTBROOOOOOOOOOOOOOOWN

I'll do one of my characters from V2 and V3 because I'm a grizzled veteran of this site:

V2 - Rob Adams:

Rob was originally supposed to die from the first person he encountered, but after my experiment with Steven Smith was sucking majorly, I decided to keep Rob going. He was going to be an extremely cowardly person who cracked under the pressure to the point of paranoia. He was going to shoot his gun at random things along his way, before finally encountering a killer. When he tried to shoot them, the gun was going to be empty from his paranoia shooting leaving him open to get blown apart.

After deciding to keep him and linking him up with Matt, Rob was originally going to be the one who got laid and killed, but we (baby_g and I) decided to have Matt be the one to take on that personality as it was in line with the RL person Matt was based on.


V3 - Steve Digaetano

Everyone pretty much knows what my original plan with Riz was, so I'll talk about what I wanted to do with Steve. There was a brief plan to get the football team together and have them run a rampage through the island and be a power team. That was scrapped when the game went live. We were going to give it a couple threads before everyone met up, but the threads the football guys found themselves in were pretty awesome and the handlers liked the paths, so we kept them apart (for the most part).

Once the decision was made to keep them from being a villainous power team, I had Steve bail on Courtney (honestly due to the handler wanting her dead) and going on his own path.

Oh, Steve was also supposed to be part of the escape plan. He was going to stumble upon the area where the collars were being removed and find out what the plan was. He was going act as one of the leaders, before realizing that he couldn't leave Gabe behind. Steve was going to get his collar off and head back on to the island to get Gabe. Then in classic TV fashion, he was going to find Gabe (and whoever was with him at that point in time) and get them back to the escape area. It was going to be here that they were going to realize that all the fighting had started and Gabe was going to die. Steve was going to end up getting left behind with no collar on and return to the game collarless and play it out from there. This was nixed at the last minute when it was decided to keep everything ridiculously private for the escape.

Now, I really liked Steve to the point where looking back on it, I would have liked to win it with him more than with Riz. My only worry with Steve would have been how he would have handled a final four with only one villain in Lenny. I don't know what we would have done if it came down to Trish vs Lulu vs Steve. Trish and Steve were about equally armed, but it would have been a case of who fired first.

Everyone pretty much knows what my original plan with Riz was

Actually, I'm drawing a blank and would be really interested if you're up for sharing!

Ditto that!

Well then, there were a couple main ideas with Riz.

Rizzle Idea #1: "HHH he is not."

Riz decides to play the game. This was going to be a similar path to how he was played, but this idea would have made him much more methodical, and way less over the top. Real life Riz is a very very street smart person. I wanted to originally portray JR as the villain version of RL Riz, which would be an extremely cerebral approach. The type of villain, similar in a way to what we saw with Aaron, where he talks other people into doing the dirty work. He plants the seeds of doubt. Rarely gets his hands dirty. That type of villain. What I found though in doing some practice writes was at the time, my writing wasn't very strong (still don't think it is), and I was having an insanely difficult time finding a balance to the cerebral approach that didn't make Riz seem completely and utterly cookie cutter. So the cerebral assassin idea was out, much to the sadness of myself.

Rizzle Idea #2: "Minor Adjustments"

This was the one I was the closest to going with, and damn near switched to this when Riz got the cut above his eye. This was going to be the same story as he had. Decide to play, fail at getting some kills for a while, then once he gets his first, ramp up the violence. Once I knew that the cerebral approach wasn't going to work, I decided to take an ultra-violence approach for a couple reasons. 1) I knew that RL Riz would be humour-pissed that I chose to make him a looney. 2) Ultra-violence can be entertaining in this type of format and I wanted to see if I could pull it off in an entertaining way, and maybe induce some cringes (tire iron finger breaking folks). 3) I knew that to take an ultra-violent killer approach, I would need to earn people's respect with my character. You can't have a super killer in these games be it villain, hero, anti-hero, etc. without people letting you kill their characters. To take an ultra-violent approach and make it work, I'd need other writers to WANT Riz to kill their character. (Btw: I appreciate all those who did let me kill their characters. Riz's eventual story and win wouldn't be possible with you guys). So anyways, Riz was going to racking up the kills, moving up the most-dangerous list, until his fight with Velvet. When she caused his eye cut, that was going to my way out of writing Riz.

My plan was going to have Riz keep going for a while yet. Then, when he and Eddie fought, he would have collapsed a few times. I would have been including subtle hints in the posts leading up to the fight that Riz was suffering from Sepsis from the cut above his eye. This finally would have taken its toll from the pure exhaustion of the Eddie battle, and after finally collapsing and not moving, it would have allowed Eddie to absolutely destroy him. I'm talking like Jerred would have written such a beating as it would have been every ounce of that beautifully written frustration that Eddie had going. The only thing that actually stopped this from happening was Jerred actually PMing me and saying, "I don't want to write an Endgame. I like Riz and Steve enough that I'd rather you try to win with one of them. Let's just rock the hell out of this scene." I'd like to think we did that justice.

So yeah, Riz not being finally crippled by sepsis and being savagely beaten to death is thanks to Jerred liking my characters enough to sacrifice one of the (in my opinion) Top 5 Characters of V3 and Top 10 Characters in SOTF.

Rizzle Plan #3: "Dan is an awful, awful friend."

Kyle Rizea in V2 was supposed to be my interpretation of I thought RL Riz (real name is Kyle) would act in a Battle Royale/SOTF situation. It was going to be my roleplaying him exactly as I saw him and could see him acting. Instead, he was one-threaded in a humourous scene with the wonderful Bryan Calvert.

I came very close at one point before I began Riz in V3 to doing that again, just to be a dick to my RL best friend. I knew that RL Riz read SOTF and enjoyed it, but he had always ragged on me for how "he" was killed in V2. I was actually going to have Harry Tsai kill him to keep with the theme of Cyco writing the character who kills Riz.


There you go, those were the Rizzle Plans in all their glory.

Well I don't really have much to add for each of my individual characters, so I'll just lump all of my ideas into one list.

• My original third character was going to be the cheery, laid-back and quite lazy Felipe Ellison. Then for some reason I forget I dropped him, putting Natalia in his place as my last V5 kid.
• Natalia was originally going to die first, being the tertiary character to Jason's secondary and Veronica's primary/"flagship". However, on a whim I put Jason in her place as the one to die off the bat. Violent-Medic took note of this, and then his death was planned out.
• Jason was originally going to be yelling at some cameras or something when he startled Joe, who would've shot him in the back. However, this changed to a struggle with Finn and then location changed to the hospital (I expected it to be in the Woodlands, but oh well).
• Before V5, I had the idea of the tertiary character dying first, secondary character dying around midgame and taking the last one as far as I could until they were rolled. But then I goofed up and Natalia went inactive, so that plan was scrapped.

Oooh, oooh, oooh. I really want to play this game. Since I've only had one character in v5 proper (well, if you count my recent adoption of Ben, two), it's obvious who I'm going to write about.

[+] Brianna Battaglia

Okay, so she went through a lot of different drafts of personality. I created her about a year ago, before rejoining the site again in August of this year. I managed to come back just in time with my already pre-game approved character. Because so much time had passed, I really had to recraft and restructure my idea for her. I had no idea what I was originally planning for her, so I did a lot of exploratory writing until I found a voice for her.

So here's a couple concepts at you.

Brianna as a sanctimonious bitch: Brianna was planned as one of three characters that I had planned. My main forte is in psychology, so I was going to try and express the Freudian concepts of the three psychic apparatuses in Freudian psychology. Brianna represented the superego, where as another girl would represent the ego and a boy would represent the id. Each one was going to be an exploration of how my personal psychology might be fragmented and play the game.
Brianna, as the superego, was going to be all high and mighty about the action of killing. She'd view it as a completely inexcusable deviation from humanity, and would really vilify anyone who did it. She was going to be extraordinarily haughty and consider herself above that because she didn't play. Some of that still existed, but I took her direction into more of not understanding how someone could be driven to kill (until she totally thought about it).

Brianna as a player hunter: After she grabbed Theodore Fletcher's gun during the confrontation in the clubhouse, I was planning on Brianna giving into her rage and becoming a player hunter. I was originally planning to have an antagonistic relationship between Brianna and Nuggets's Jaquilyn Locke, ultimately cumulating in us meeting up a couple times and fighting until someone got rolled. Brianna would take her anger towards the system and some of that sanctimonious spite, and hunt some players. I never asked Espi this, but I would have really wanted Brianna to engage Theo at some point, poetically using his own gun against him.

Brianna's backstory:So since I missed out on a ton of pregame, I kept trying to shoehorn a lot of characterization in her ingame stuff. She mentioned a lot about her father and brother, often at inappropriate times. I struggled to bring up her family relationships in a way that was organic and that jived with my threadmates' posting speeds.
When I was playing with her being a player hunter, I was going to have a whole cognitive shift with her realizing that she had to try and fight to see her family again.

So yeah, I think if we ever do another round of Second Chances, I'd seriously consider bringing her back. I'd love to revisit some of those concepts.

There was this guy called David and there were some ditched plans, as it turns out.

David joins the Cult of Gavin
Prior to the start of the game, Ravenstar approached me and asked me whether I would like to join his little project with David. I actually agreed, and was given access to the GoogleDocument. Then the first rolls happened and dead people suck at actually getting stuff done.

To be fair, his addition would not have changed all too much, except that Lauren would have died sooner and that my name would forever be tainted.

David falls of somewhere high, survives
But breaks his legs and thus cannot move. Frankly though, I just cared about shoving him from somewhere high.

David gets seperated from his friends, through death in the best case scenario
Cue "Crazy Dave Mode". He'd be turned into a mental wreck, searching the island for anything that would substitute as a friend - even stones and other lifeless objects - while repeating the mantra "Lonely... lonely... lonely... Where is my [INSERT FRIEND'S NAME HERE]"

David meets Maximiliam Sawyer
There was some backstory regarding the prom that TBH, Psychedelic and I developed. Eventually, I would have liked Max and David to meet up so that the latter can get angry at the former for stealing his prom date. Priorities.

R.J. - Master of Disguise: I had an odd idea is that I would play up on R.J.'s androgynous looks and have him go cross-dressing and trying to pretend he was someone else after he killed Lauren. Some time after, I stopped being high.

R.J. - The Ugly One: Me, DocBalance, and dmboogeh made a pact to where, in a situation where all three of our boys (R.J., Garrett, Micheal) were all rolled, we'd go out in a traditional Mexican standoff with each other, taking the name of the final film in the Dollars Trilogy - The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly. R.J. is Tuco in this scenario.

R.J. - Door to Door Warrant Salesman: I was really on board for R.J. being part of the Hanley plan had it ever gone through.

R.J. - Token Scapegoat: There's bits and pieces that I left around where R.J. set himself up pretending to be a villain (this is probably most evident with his interactions with Joe) to play up the whole inflicting suffering upon him instead of others deal. Basically, he was going to intentionally set himself up with all the blame. This is something I never quite figured out how to articulate properly and am still thinking about till now on how to turn this into a longer story, but I dashed it when it was safe to before I got myself into something along the lines of a trainwreck.

What could have been - Aileen Edition

Extraordinary Delusions Aileen would devolve into a mess of a person that lived in a different world all together. One of the ideas was to have her believe to be in a video game, or that she was in Disneyland. My idea would be to transpose all the island actions to fit her delusions somehow.

Multiple Injuries She'd receive a lot of injuries during her stay on the island, turning a relatively decent looking woman into a messed bunch of dirt, bandages, blood and godknowswhat. She'd lose limp and eye only to get killed by a disease, as the frequent doses adrenaline surpressed her immune system too much.

Seattle Chainsaw Massacre At some point, I would have loved to have Aileen rampage with a chainsaw if it were possible. Just so I could.

Nude scene somewhere, someone enters the area Similar to the Scene between Mara and Zubin, but perhaps with a more intentional comedic value.

Aileen goes extremist survival-style player This was depending on whether Jessica got rolled or not when we were in Today I'm Dirty. Not a lot of pondering went into this one, just looking out for a possible direction.

Aileen spits in Travis' face Alternate last act, didn't fit with the flow, thus was scrapped.

Since Rosemary has been eliminated, guess I should share the menagerie of ideas that never came to fruition while she was alive. ^^

START:

The Ophelia: Rosemary breaking down from day one, and pretty much becoming a sniveling mess or a bit touched in the head until she was killed off or rolled. Had no experience with writing insane characters so decided quickly didn't want her to go down this path.

The mad woman in the attic named Bertha: This is tied to Paris, though never brought it up to Ruggahissy. Basically Paris and Rosemary meet early and team up, with her developing into something like his executioner and romanticizing their relationship. Again: can't do crazy, so idea was chucked.

I'm not cool playing Second Banana: If Garrett stayed in the group, considering how she took leadership in later threads I would've expected her and Garrett not to agree, and be an opposing force to his plans in some cases. But then Garrett left the thread without everyone so that plan was gone. XD

I came in like a Wrecking Ball: Rosemary I wanted to develop some sort of feelings for Garrett Wilde that might have led to friction between her and Mirabella later on if they met up. Never shared this with Doc or Sansa so here you go. ^^

Burn the witch!: If Garrett, Matt, and Bella caught Rosemary, then have her go through a twisted trial. One that would end with her being or almost thrown into a danger zone for what she did to Joey.

Rosemary's Baby 2012: Joachim and Rosemary succeed in having sex and if she won would show her becoming pregnant. Then Doc adopted Joachim from Bikriki and he didn't see Joachim able to do... the do IC and we decided against it. *Insert jokes here*

The Company of Wolves: Rosemary would join Paris and Joachim's group until rolls or tensions between the three drove them apart. I wish I stuck to this plan instead of having her run off after Schwarze Rosen, but didn't see any alternatives at the time.

This feels like Incest when it shouldn't: Wacky, wacky scene I thought up where Paris tries to manipulate Rosemary and kisses her, but all she can think about is the time they pretended to be brother and sister and is freaking out. Bonus points if Aileen showed up and saw them kissing.

Having a talk with your dead brother and friends while drugged up on Aspirin: Was going to have Rosemary hallucinate and meet with her friends in a dream sequence while Timothy watched. Then rolls came. Now that I think about it, could've put it in Retrograde, but oh well.

Bang: Wanted to have a showdown of some sort between Rosemary and Katarina when they got rolled at the same time. Plan didn't happen since Katarina got saved and here we are.

Eye Scream: If Rosemary had won, wanted her to attack Tracen Danya and damage one of his eyes. Preferably with a rolled up pamphlet.

Joyride: Rosemary somehow hotwire a car or bus and find another way to remove the collars, then set out on a road trip across the island trying to destroy as many collars as she could.

Nothing but Ashes: Rosemary decides to give Joey, Becca, and every body in Southern Town a Viking funeral. Was afraid she would be killed instantly so refrained from doing this.

No ones Home: If she won Rosemary dropped off at her house, but nobody is there to answer since both her mother and father aren't there.

[Grand Moff Hissa]

[+] What Could Have Been Part Three

One thing I thought might be fun to throw up here, after the fact, is Garrett's notes, both coding the pamphlet and some of his killer coding stuff. Gonna spoiler it because some of it is massive, may expand on it a bit later.

[+] Pamphlet coding

"Well hello, children! I'm absolutely, positively thrilled that you've chosen to read over this wonderful book that I've so laboriously crafted just for you -- it could be the difference between life and death, you see. The fact that you've even opened this book tells me one thing about you: you're smart. Perhaps smarter than I've given you credit for. Within this guide are some key facts you'll need to know in order to survive on this island... or should I say, perhaps prolong your lives a bit longer. What you'll need to survive, most of you don't have. However, little warriors, I'll get on with it."~ Mr. Danya's Survival Guide Section coding: Child-guardian, authority, duality, individuality, praise.


So, what do you all need to know about the collars this go around? They're waterproof, they're shockproof, and they aren't removable. But don't take my word for it, please, try to remove them. You'll experience a rather painful demise. You see, much like the first model we used, these collars are also tamper-proof, and explode when messed with, effectively leaving a nice big gap where your neck used to be. As those of you who watched the previous SOTF might've noticed, the design's a bit different -- don't let it fool you, they're still just as menacing and lethal as ever.

The collars are a vital part of our little experiment here. They monitor your pulses. Don't be lulled into a false sense of security, children. We know where you are and what you're doing at all times. Just because we aren't responding doesn't mean we aren't watching you. If you cause us trouble, we can easily have you disqualified from the game... in a rather grisly and unpleasant manner, I might add. Keep that in mind before attempting yet another futile and pointless escape plan.~Mr. Danya's Survival Guide, The Collars. Section Coding: Inevitability, entrapment, subservience, illusion, punishment, We-Not-I.

We can't have you all camping out in a certain location until the end of time, now can we? I'll be announcing new danger zones and clearing others during every announcement, so be on your toes. Don't linger anywhere for too long, that's almost ensuring that that area will become a danger zone. I've got to keep you kids on the run, you see. A spooked herd stampedes more easily, and all that jazz.~Mr. Danya's Survival Guide, Danger Zones. Section coding: Child-like imagery, exaggeration, familiarity, We-I separation, We watches, I does.

"You know, children, I make the announcements for your own good, so it would be in your best interests to listen, and listen intently. I'll be giving you a list of all of your fallen friends. I might even tell you who killed them, if I'm in the mood. Then you can enact exact retribution upon their murderer and all that good stuff. Makes for good ratings, you know. Not only will I give you a tally of the dead, but I'll also tell you which areas are becoming restricted. Take heed of that, children, because once an area becomes restricted, you're sealing your own fate by lingering within."~Mr. Danya's Survival Guide, Morning Announcements. Section Coding: Value, information, give-and-take, agency.

Twenty-four hours. If we've not had at least one death over the course of one day, you'll all die. Doesn't seem fair, does it? That's why you should take the initiative, children, and make sure that at least one person dies every day. They say collar explosion is a very painful way to go. Not that I would know. Regardless, it would work in your favor to make sure that the kill count is met. I'd hate to have this game end prematurely, you see. It costs me ratings, and loss of ratings costs me money. ~Mr. Danya's Survival Guide, Kill or Be KilledSection Coding: Self-interest, imperatives, deadlines, many-vs.-one.

You might've noticed the cameras mounted in various places across the island. Much like the original SOTF, this one is being broadcast nationwide. Remember, kiddos, you're on television, so play to the crowd! This is a blood sport in the darkest sense of the word, and people are watching for the carnage they expect you to unleash. Don't disappoint me. On the subject of cameras, it's also safe to remind you that you're being watched at all times -- not only by me, but by people around the world. Do something interesting, little warriors, make me proud! ~Mr. Danya's Survival Guide, Cameras. Section Coding: performance, abandonment, encouragement, gladiators, competition, enabling

I leave you with these parting words. It may seem like a great idea to team up with friends and attempt to take on the system. Remember -- you aren't the first person to have this ingenius idea, and odds are, you won't be the last. You can't defeat me. Groups seem smart. They aren't. There's always a weak link. Always someone who can't be trusted. Just because you aren't willing to do unto others, children, doesn't mean that others out there are so kind. This is a game about deceit. It's a game about murder. Be wary of others. Could you kill your best friend? ... What if your best friend could kill you?~Mr. Danya's Survival Guide, Cameras. Section Coding: trust, friendship, entropy, reality vs. fiction, I=The System, weakness, deceit.

[+] Shorthand killer coding

Katarina Konipaski: Impersonal, efficient, fear? Engage immediately or do not engage.

Makatala So'oialo: Panic, reflex, accident? Observe, do not engage.

Amaranta Montalvo: Resourceful, passionate, brutal. Engage from distance.

Joachim Lovelace: Hunter, ambush, aggressive. Do not engage.

Hansel Williams: Reflexive, bold, relentless. Engage alone.

[+] Hansel In Depth Killer Coding

Targets: Defenseless? Unprompted? Pillow fort, hold-up, undertaker, all suggest surprised and passive victims.
Daniel: Passive, possibly armed, most likely non-resistant. Too early for likely breakdown.
Mallory: Aggressive, setting suggests otherwise. Possibly unaware of threat. Shoot first, check later?
Kyle: Undertaker, burying bodies? No kills, possibly friends. Strange irreverence: Highly religious, interrupts burial service?

Method: Gunshot. No victim bodies located so far. Description not overly brutal, field analysis may show otherwise.

Motivation: Previous aggression and dissatisfaction noted. Revenge? Justice? Superiority? Views self better than others. Religious factor? Religious abandonment? Home life? Audience perception? Perceived home reception?

So, since Endgame's upon us, I think it's time to kind of 'show my hand' as it were with things I've done with my more popular (or at least, more publicised) character throughout V5. It's absolutely crazy how many ideas I had - fully fleshed out and partially mused upon alike - and I've been nearly bursting to tell people. I know endgame isn't over yet, and Hansel's fate is still not disclosed, but I can sit on the pandora's box no longer.

-- Natali becomes a super hero.

This was the best of my ideas by far in terms of theme. Natali's story is one of taking the backseat, masterfully woven by backslash, and I felt that the best way to capitalize on the seeds she'd sown during her original (albeit mournfully undershadowed by my own writing with Natali) run of the character by crafting a narrative in which Natali would burst out of her shell and become the hard-bitten, tough as nails girl that looks up to Vasquez and any lead played by Michelle Rodriguez. It largely fell through when Natali was rolled, though, and when backslash wrote her death three months before I adopted her.

-- Natali's Family Runs a Wake

The Greers were such a well-fleshed out and remarkably nuanced family that backslash was able to craft a vivid image of them without a single word written from their perspective, leaving the reader to basically imagine literally everything about her home life. This made them the perfect outlet to write a mass funeral for all of the V5 kids' parents, where Natali's mother with perfect hair and a kind soul who's well liked by everyone would write a moving speech read by her sensitive but strong father who wore glasses (not because he needed them, but to make him more approachable to people) who would cry during it. It was a nice bit, but I had to scrap most of it when I discovered that Natali was black, and I'm not comfortable writing black people.

-- Natali Buys A Horse In The Afterlife

This idea was fucking dumb and I hated it the second I thought it up.

-- Natali Gets Her Period

I was finally going to show my chops writing a female character by having her paint her nails, watch The O.C, and run out of tampons. This sequence of events would really highlight how I have grown as a writer from 2013 to now by showing how diverse I could truly be. It was scrapped, though, when I couldn't fit the sentence "Scarlet Moist Secret Napkins" into the story without re-working the entire concept.

So, since Endgame's upon us, I think it's time to kind of 'show my hand' as it were with things I've done with my more popular (or at least, more publicised) character throughout V5. It's absolutely crazy how many ideas I had - fully fleshed out and partially mused upon alike - and I've been nearly bursting to tell people. I know endgame isn't over yet, and Hansel's fate is still not disclosed, but I can sit on the pandora's box no longer.

-- Natali becomes a super hero.

This was the best of my ideas by far in terms of theme. Natali's story is one of taking the backseat, masterfully woven by backslash, and I felt that the best way to capitalize on the seeds she'd sown during her original (albeit mournfully undershadowed by my own writing with Natali) run of the character by crafting a narrative in which Natali would burst out of her shell and become the hard-bitten, tough as nails girl that looks up to Vasquez and any lead played by Michelle Rodriguez. It largely fell through when Natali was rolled, though, and when backslash wrote her death three months before I adopted her.

-- Natali's Family Runs a Wake

The Greers were such a well-fleshed out and remarkably nuanced family that backslash was able to craft a vivid image of them without a single word written from their perspective, leaving the reader to basically imagine literally everything about her home life. This made them the perfect outlet to write a mass funeral for all of the V5 kids' parents, where Natali's mother with perfect hair and a kind soul who's well liked by everyone would write a moving speech read by her sensitive but strong father who wore glasses (not because he needed them, but to make him more approachable to people) who would cry during it. It was a nice bit, but I had to scrap most of it when I discovered that Natali was black, and I'm not comfortable writing black people.

-- Natali Buys A Horse In The Afterlife

This idea was fucking dumb and I hated it the second I thought it up.

-- Natali Gets Her Period

I was finally going to show my chops writing a female character by having her paint her nails, watch The O.C, and run out of tampons. This sequence of events would really highlight how I have grown as a writer from 2013 to now by showing how diverse I could truly be. It was scrapped, though, when I couldn't fit the sentence "Scarlet Moist Secret Napkins" into the story without re-working the entire concept.

I am fully supportive of the horse idea.

Anyway, I had some ideas for Marcus before I kind of stalled out with him and handed him off to Persy, but they were pretty vague. Mostly I'm sad that he and Phoebe split up and then she died before him because I didn't get the opportunity to have his last words be "This marriage is killing me, Phoebe".

So, is this still a thing? Because now that my peeps are all dead and metaphorically buried (two of these are only really conceptual things but):

- Mallory was designed to be a player killer: This didn't even last into the main game, but that was the original intent when making her character. Hence the bully-disliking and such. First character made, hadn't really figured out how to write subtle yet.

- Naomi's character was originally going to be a guy: This is irrelevant except in the fact that it likely would have resulted in an extra Miles Strickland wandering around. And this is pretty much the only change that ever happened where Naomi was concerned.

- The Joe-Travis brief alliance was meant to start a lot sooner, and on a more benign note. However, the time it took to start (we'd been about to have them meet literally right as the crash happened) and the obvious crazy-murderer vibe of Travis' announced kills/continuous encounters with people that Travis had pissed off drove the alliance out of benign 'yay friend' territory before it even started.

- Possible 'If Joe Had Won' scenarios: Had Joe won V5 (though it probably couldn't have been done convincingly given his mindset) he likely would have either a) tried to join STAR in an attempt to make up for his murders, or b) not been able to deal with regular life after everything and eventually committed suicide. I'm not quite sure which, it likely would have partially depended on how endgame went, but I think it probably would have been the latter.

Blow of two years of dust and ARISE.

- Florentina Luz was not intended to suck -

RIP. The crux of my Tina concept was a character whose character was the environment more than it was her thoughts or actions, but this proved exceedingly difficult to execute in practice and I was sort of scrambling to make something out her by the end. I mean I maybe could have even executed a half-baked, wishy-washy concept, but...

I just didn't plan well. Every single post was off the cuff and thus a clusterfuck of ideas I could remember and half ass, and days after the fact I'd be like 'shit I forgot [x] motif'. When a character is this purely prosaic the repeating motifs and symbols are probably key, but I just didn't keep track of them. Tina's mess of a story is the end result.

Long story short, Tina needs to be revisited in a Second Chances. I fucked up in a big way, and I'm not about to go back and edit all her stuff! What's done is done. Tina was an experiment, Tina was a failure, Tina was a lesson.

- The original plan was not for Tina to die to Isabel -

Isabel wasn't originally going to grab first blood. The plan I tentatively had was a sort of cheap twist where the girls would fight and then swap bags in the chaos as Tina escaped. Key to this is the scarf in the bag (at least if people can even figure out that it's a scarf given the dumbass prose), it was supposed to be like Tina's 'heart' or her 'ark of the covanent' or something else really important. Tina would never meet another Luz, and she would die shortly after and only in death realize she'd lost the scarf, the final blow to her that she wasn't ever able to protect her beloved Lily or ultimately even the sole token of her existence. Isabel would later casually notice the scarf while sifting through her own inventory and acknowledge it after the fact.

Note that Tina was originally not supposed to use religious imagery for describing Lily, I have no idea how or why that happened.

Ultimately this plan fell through because Alvania had the gall to go and get rolled and I decided Tina could just as easily die now as later. I think this turned out for the better! The original plan was probably less potent than what ended up happening. I think the scarf might still have a minor, relevant role.

- Florentina Luz would have had a brief, positive encounter before dying -

I was mulling over a transitional thread post-bag swap and pre-death, one where Tina's lack of speech would work in her favor for a change and let us see her in a more positive light (and more ridiculously awful prose!). Like, kind of as a solid seeming figure who's listening or the like. I don't know who I'd have put her with, just someone or another who needed a bit of calm/a sounding board? This was a really nebulous concept, but all the extra I had for Tina. She was intended to die early, even prior to me realizing I had failed with her.

Well, since we're reviving this...

Jennifer doesn't die.

Oops. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I'll do you one better.

Justice Armstrong

April 6, 2014 - August 13, 2016

Hello friends, since we're past halfway, I thought we could bring this back.

Henry actually finds Jae: So Henry was originally going to have a touching final moment with Jae shortly before dying. It was going to be sad and cute and all sorts of fun things, but unfortunately circumstances meant there wasn't enough time before deadline to finish the scene. So Henry died alone and Jae found his body later. How tragic! (Also this is why Henry's death thread was named as it was)

Henry as a quirky protagonist: Henry was a little messy during his experience in the midgame. My initial plan was for him to find a group to stick to and be the moral support/heart. I was thinking that he'd sort of play on Maria Graham, where he's very silly and out-of-touch, but with a more serious center, which was referenced in his opening denial of the situation. I wasn't sure who I was keeping around at the time, so I thought Henry might make it far this way. Didn't work out because I didn't keep Henry around long enough and was too flighty with him to stick to a group. Ideally, this plan would have led into...

Henry is literally/metaphorically backstabbed: Exactly how it sounds. My hope was that Henry and his last companion would be together, and the friend would kill Henry, leaving him in despair as he is betrayed. Didn't happen because none of his friends ended up in a position to do so.

Alice actually does what her first oneshot said she'd do: So remember how Alice had the first post in the chapel? How she declared she wanted to avoid human contact for as long as possible? That was a fun idea, but for a couple reasons it never worked out and she ended up buddying. I like her current iteration, but I think someday I'd like to do something like that. Maybe.

That's what I've got for now, may update it later on.

Checked through old Google Docs and I found the Ben document I'd written up that probably would have allowed me to have executed his arc more competently had I remembered it existed. Had some future hypotheticals plans for his island path on there too.

Increase Minimalism - Ben's tone was planned to become more and more sparse and minimalist as he continued to lose hope and self-agency. I actually think this was my general intention no matter what path he ended up taking on island. This would probably have fit the role he ended up playing alongside Raina, Penelope, Kizi, and Lili better than what I actually elected to do.

Nate, Matt, Henry... Astrid?? - I think this document was made around the time of the months Day 2 OOCly occurred in, so a lot of my musing seems to have centered around potential paths the group would have built up and broken down along. Henry stealing was the plan ultimately executed but there were other factors I never brought into the equation. But I think no matter what my long term goal was for Ben to end up apart from Matt and Nate, I just think the routes leading there were unclear for a while. Something I wanted was Ben mindlessly running off from the group to chase after Henry, and I think I proposed a scene where Ben roughed up Henry a bit as morally dubious retribution but Espi didn't like it or something like that.

I dunno if I ever properly opened negotiations with Pippin but I think I considered the idea of Astrid joining that group, which I might have proposed along the lines of her bluffing her way into temporary safety until she had the right circumstances to score her kill. I was intrigued by the idea of the dynamics that would form between the members of the group, one treacherous, one point five frothing player killers in the making, the sort of conversations/arguments that could arise... I made some provisions that the group could have lasted long, Ben either scoring a player hunter kill that kicked off other aspects of his arc, or having naturally grown restless to start fighting back to the point where he'd abandon the group. Of course in the end the group barely lasted a day and the scene with Alvaro was the consequence of a bunch of people including myself rejecting my various ideas, I believe.

One PK - My main idea all along was that Ben would get one player kill but then his will to fight would evaporate as he couldn't handle the moral and emotional difficulty of coming to terms with murder. In short the path he did take in the post Penelope half of what actually happened, but with the added guilt and weight of having properly murdered and such. Meeting Penelope was a bit of a spontaneous decision on my hand, he could easily have stayed on this 'get one kill' route I had planned if Turtle hadn't posted Haunted Reality when she had. I think I was hoping to make Alex or Alvaro the kill, but in hindsight neither Grim Wolf or Yugi would likely have approved, so I suppose I should be glad I was diverted when I was.

Very unlikely that he'd have ever gone a full PK route.

An Amputation Scene - Came up with this one when Ben was shot in the arm by Alvacuum. The wound goes gangrenous despite Ben's attempts to keep it clean and take care of it. I was interested in this because it's not the sort of scene I'm aware of kicking in during a version of SOTF (it probably has happened I'm just aware of it), it was gritty and brutal and visceral and something I was just very down for doing for a while. Ben would need to 127 Hours his own arm in a desperate attempt to contain the rapidly spreading infection. Chances that it would have worked were very low, this was essentially a guaranteed transition into a slow, painful, full of regrets death with all kinds of potential, especially if I could have roped people into helping him with the scene.

I just forgot about it over time. Even if I had recalled I probably would not have proposed it to backslash and Turtle, they were too busy with other stuff more pertinent to their characters and this was more a scene on my own behalf. Bit too dramatic for Ben's arc as it devolved.

Pulling a Jerry Fury (not what it sounds like) - At some point I made a note to myself that Ben had to fail to find words to comfort someone, or rant at someone, get a few words in and then fall into a silence. Internally he would have called this his Jerry Fury moment, in deference to Jerry's opening moments on island. I regret totally forgetting about this little idea.

Since all but one of my characters are dead now and we're into the top 20(!) I figured I might as well post here.

1. Cristo doesn't get swapped for Raina. I will probably never be certain that swapping Cristo on the first rolls was the best idea, and I guess the fact that I'm unsure about that and that I still have ideas for what I could have done with him speaks to the fact that I could get mileage out of him in a Second Chances Three or something. If he didn't die on the first day I was going to have him stick with Abby for moral support for a while (also Abby would have lived, sorry Paige) before deciding whether he was going to have a freak out and hurt somebody else or just self-destruct under pressure.

2. The other side of that, Raina dies early.

3. Raina does an escape plot that is actually kind of successful or at least gets herself/her allies blown up. This didn't end up working because I'm not knowledgeable enough about the necessary mechanics and once I joined staff it wasn't doable anyway because that would be cheating.

4. Raina blows somebody else up. Probably Darius or Johnny or something and quite possibly blowing a hand off and mortally wounding herself in the process.

5. Bridgette does something. When I initially took Bridgette over, I was planning to have her attempt to play, eventually throwing Bryony under the bus when she needed to distract a threat or score what she thought of as an easy kill. But then Astrid got rolled, soz.

6. GLD gets killed by Fiyori. This was my initial plan from before she was even rolled, but the in-character timing would have made it awkward and implausible.

7. GLD kills Fiyori. Riki made a suggestion to this effect after I first adopted GLD, though it probably never would have come to fruition even if Fiyori had gotten rolled since Frogue's basically only instruction was that he didn't want GLD to kill.

8. Min-jae kills like... a bunch of other people besides the ones he has actually killed. I've gotten rejected for several death offers this version (and no hard feelings, I don't want anyone to think I'm calling them out), which I imagine would have altered the course of his story a fair bit depending on who and when, if they had happened. Probably for the better that they didn't happen, since I didn't want him to become a straight player.

9. Min-jae meets Henry and probably has sad makeouts with him or something before Henry dies. Not being able to be there for Henry's death is a regret of mine from this version, though I'm happy with what it led to.

10. Min-jae-Brendan-Ty three way showdown. An idea I pitched to Paige and Primrosette before both Ty and Brendan got rolled, which we were unfortunately not able to carry out. The basic idea was for Jae and Ty to get into it before Jae spots Brendan and promptly throws him under the bus so Ty won't turn his face into hamburger.

11. Nathan (remember him?) goes to the island instead of Cristo. This was my initial plan during pregame before I decided I was having more fun writing Cristo and then I killed him on Day 1 anyway. Nathan being there might have led to a more cohesive Ballet Death Squad™ had I been able to put my plans for him into motion.

That's all I can think of right now but there's probably stuff I'm forgetting.

CrossBowPig - 07/25/2017
Right now I'm concerned with something a little more immediate:
Post 300

Cicada - 07/25/2017
u coming in for the kill
damn
milestonez

CrossBowPig - 07/25/2017
I'm gonna do a long-ass "What Could Have Been" post
Post mortem

Cicada - 07/25/2017
oh huh this'll be cool

CrossBowPig - 07/25/2017
Yeeeeeeee

Cresting Broken Plains: The V6 CBP Self-Indulgent Postmortem-y Thing

Introduction:
I've been feeling kind of navel-gazey recently. A good wallow in your own feelings can't really hurt you, as long as it isn't what you spend most of your time doing, but lately a lot of this introspection has been directed towards several of my missed opportunities during my first version on SOTF Main. A lot of these won't exactly be plans that fell through entirely, but missed opportunities, or points where my experience could have really, truly, changed, for better or for worse. Some of these will be reaches, and others will be what I hope are interesting insights into my process writing Arthur Bernstein and Lili Williams. I'll start with the most speculative and work my way up to an actual error I made that I'm pretty sure not many people (if any) have spotted on their own. Let's begin, shall we?

Arthur Could Have Gone With Henry Spencer And/Or Jasper Bustamante:
Writing the dynamic between Arthur and Coleen Reagan with Kilmarnock was one of my favorite parts of V6. Without that dynamic, I don't know if I would have been able to shape Arthur's narrative into the focused, pointed work that it turned out to be otherwise. However, the impact of this decision on the rest of both his and Henry and/or Jasper's stories would have butterfly-affected so many that I feel that, despite the reach-y nature of this hypothetical, it's worth including here. Speaking of Arthur, something else I lose sleep over is his death.

Lili Could Have Died Earlier If I Didn't Swap In Arthur:
Arthur's death was, admittedly, pretty damn well timed. Building the trust between Coleen and Arthur, from stressful situation to stressful situation, went on long enough for the absence of Arthur from Coleen's life to be emphasized in her behavior, and yet didn't drag so long that Arthur's dying first became a foregone conclusion. At the same time, Lili was in-between story threads at this point in time, having just decided she was completely done with Darius Van Dyke's escape plan. I don't know exactly how I would have killed her off at this point (I had vague visions at some point of a harrowing encounter between Lili and the Isabel Ramirez/Lily Caldwell duo). At the very least, it would have prevented one of her more egregious errors from spreading too badly later on, but we'll get to that later on. On Arthur's side, this could have squeezed a few more drops of real tension out of him and Coleen's strange friendship. I'm happy that things turned out the way they did, though.

Lili Could Have Not Left Benjamin Lichter and Maxim Kehlenbrink:
This one ultimately came out of my own impatience. This early on in my SOTF career, I still had not learned how to wait patiently for others to post. So, when I thought that Ben and Maxim were taking too long to wake up, I had Lili go and throw her shoes into the ocean. I probably intended for her to go back to Ben and Maxim, but eventually decided that if they did wind up meeting again Lili would have wanted to leave for real and that would just wind up being redundant. We're getting close to the big, big redundancy now, but I think there's just one thing I want to touch on before I get to that career-ruining revelation.

Lili's Death Could Have Been Planned Better:
I won't say much here, because a lot of this isn't mine to say. I primarily want to apologize for how much of a dick I was when it finally came time to kill of Lili and I still hadn't learned how to be patient yet. Her actual suicide was fine, but the thread prior had a lot of stress going on behind the scenes, and I'll leave it at that.

Which, finally, brings me to-

The Sports Strap:
Here we go.

Let's set the scene a little before I jump into the big fuck-up. In the thread My Human Gets Me Blues, Lili takes off her glasses and puts them in her pocket. She does this because, over the past few days, they've become so scratched up and smudgy that she's been unable to clean them in any meaningful capacity. Darius enters the room, and asks Lili if she's willing to help him carry the body of Jasmine King, which was lying in the middle of the room, for his escape plan attempt. She agrees, and the two carry the body out onto the bridge. While on the bridge in God In Three Persons, the subsequent thread, the glasses fall out of her pocket and are never seen again. Lili's sight problems get a little worse over the next few days, and factor into quite a few of her more hasty decisions, including, in some part, her catastrophic inability to sympathize with Asuka Takahara in Ship's A Goin' Down, the blurriness of Asuka's face matching the blurry line in Lili's mind between friend and foe.

There's one problem with all of this, though.

Lili should have never lost the glasses.

Take a look at these few sentences from Lili's profile.

On the day of the kidnapping, Lili was wearing a blue sweater and black jeans. Underneath her sweater she wears a red Frank Zappa T-Shirt. For footwear, she wears blue Chuck Taylor sneakers that she bought the previous summer. Her glasses are attached to her head with a sports strap, a precaution she has taken since her early schooling.

Did you catch that? Let's zoom in a little closer. Good, good, now, enhance!

Her glasses are attached to her head with a sports strap, a precaution she has taken since her early schooling.

If you don't know what a sports-strap is, it looks like this:

[+] Sports Strap

I'm unsure if you can tell exactly from the photo, but having worn one of these myself, they're affixed pretty tightly to your head when you wear them. So tightly, in fact, that you'd want to let your glasses droop around your neck instead of take them off if you were being annoyed by just how smudgy they had started to get. If you had been wearing them since grade school, like Lili, you probably would have been used to doing this instead of leaving them in your pocket, and if you had been wearing the strap to avoid losing the glasses specifically because you're a massive ditz, then you'd definitely not just put your glasses in your pocket.

So, what happens when Lili doesn't lose her glasses? A whole lot of stuff, really. She probably wouldn't have spent so much time running in circles and getting drenched in the rain - in fact, she might have even fought Leslie Price if, I dunno, she could have seen her - she wouldn't have relied so heavily on others during the second half of her run, and she most definitely would have had a harder time shooting Asuka. Some of these changes would have played out for worse, and others for better, but the one thing tying them all together is the disappearance of Lili's Sports Strap - a glaring omission, by any measure.

It took me a good five months after she died for me to realize that I had even given her a Sports Strap. Why did I do it? Was it specifically so that I could avoid the overplayed Scooby-Doo "Oh no, my glasses!" trope? Was it so that I could give Lili something visually remarkable, something that would make her generally safe and reasonable appearance a little more notable? Or was it specifically so I forget, like a paper town on the map I had charted out in my own head, forgotten in the mess of my own amateur cartography, a repressed reminder of my own vapid meandering so well hidden that even I, its creator, would eventually pack a bunch of food and clothes into the back of a green 1982 Ford Escort and set my GPS to the city of Sports Strap, Arizona, hoping to find a place to start a new life?

More importantly, why didn't anyone else point it out to me? Was it really so forgettable of a character detail that it escaped the minds of two different artists, a good 15+ thread partners, and anyone else who happened to read her along the way?

Guh.

Conclusion:
I loved my time writing in V6. I have no idea how most of these changes, if they were what took place, would affect how Lili Williams and Arthur Bernstein's stories played out. The one thing I know for sure, though, is that the choices I did make - consciously or by mistake - led to some of the most fun I've had as a writer, both in the SOTF universe and as a writer in general. I highlight these not out of regret - well, mostly - but because they were good food for thought.

I hope you had as much fun reading my kids as I did writing them.

-CBP

tl;dr No you can't have Lili for SC3 I have unfinished business on this bitch of an Earth.

A few more!

Blair kills Caedyn: This had been in discussion between me and Paige for a long time, like pre-island time. It ended up going to Alba/Fiyori, though, which was a good scene but made Blair's kill on Matt way more awkward since I felt obligated to reference it quickly and that scene was a bad time for it.

Blair actually dies of pneumonia: Not much, I'd toyed with Blair becoming sick and dying, which shows most midgame where she feels worse than usual. She gets better and it never really ends up as big a deal. I like what happened better.

Alice gets Nicole Husher'd: Basically Alice would be hiding from a killer stalking her and suddenly get ripped from her safe place and murdered. Just a real brutal image I had. Did not play out, but again I like what happened in the end.

copy pasted from discord without any change but for (...) things

[+] V6

[+] Dots death

originally was going to get shot in the gut
by min-jae
and dot would be like "if you are killing you, you look in my eyes"
and min-jae would leave
and shed be like
fuck you
and break the bolt
so he couldnt use it to kill someone else
and prolly say something that asha wouldnt forgive him
thats like a much better death than i wrote but like i was in a bad place when i wrote the canon one
that kill was mid-to-late game
min-jae and dot had a personal relationship
and min-jae knew dot was like
not the dorothy he knew from asha's alive time
so he went
"put her down but in a petty and mean way"
like
min-jae in general
i was going to hero her
next roll set
because i was like "this is the best time to die" because she would learn she had kill
two girls without meaning to
and shed be like
"i fucked up i didnt want to kill these girls"
well sorry dot stabbing people kills people
for a future nurse, you really messed up on that point
especially in the femoral artery

[+] Jerrys death

jerry
my plan for jerry i spoiled in the post
before he died i think
basically he would start thinking that if he won v6
that would kickstart his art career
so he'd actually start like using it, and like actively killing people
and michael would go
"nah girl"
and shoot him in the back of the head
not necessary michael
could be any of his friends

[+] SCDOS

[+] tinas original death

tina was originally going to shoot herself after receiving her gun in the first thread(, originally she was the hero for Saachi (my homegirl) but i swapped for jeanette because i felt like a drama queen))

[+] jeanettes original death

jeanette another death was late game
she would reach late game with an injury
and shed meet a killer
and that killer would be like
"how did you make it this far without killing anyone and with an injury"
and jeanette would just go "i don't know"
and get shot
(this would be like a symbol for like her not having plans for the future other than live it and when she met a challenge she'd just go bye bye)

[+] tinas winning thing

basically at one point Tina would have had an one nighter with Abby because they would be both drunk and depressed
Oh and also Tina would have accepted the deal and stayed with the terrorists
She would have done menial jobs and stayed at their housing complex for a while like other terrorists who are wanted for crimes
She would have to chosen to stay because even though her family abandoned her and Daniel shit talked her for money she would accept the responsibility of her actions and decided being legally dead was better than alive
Also @Dodd Tina was meta since the beginning: she remembered her past life in details and made choices according to it

Mmmmm the epilogue would have ended with Tina giving painting lessons to Amora and Tracen going "okay she's busy start the kidnapping" and gunshots would be heard
That's more the prologue tho
The post before that
And if sc3 happens
Would be her and Abby talking about their feeling at the 4th of July Sotf BBQ
They would decide they wouldn't date because it just wouldn't work because Tina wasn't allowed to leave the complex but they kept it an open option if one day she was allowed to leave it
She gets fucked up with Bruce and Kaige and she's like "this sucks but it could be worse"
Bruce
Boris
Maddie's guy
Mhm the interview with danya would be like "haha you are shitty you disnt kill anyone" and Tina going "yeah oops"
And danya gives her a choice of either going back home and get kidnapped one day or staying ere and working for them
She's unable to make a decision but it's fine because Danya decides to keep her for a while
Kaige, who took a liking in Tina, would give her newspaper and info about what the world perception of her and most of people assumed she was dead
Her family was recovering from it and adjusting well to their new life in Arizona
It was still hard for Celine though because she felt guilty that Tina was there and not he r
Tina sends her a couple of grands with "good luck for everything"
Celine goes to college or something
Idk still sad but at least she can wipe her eyes with money instead of tissues
also mmm
@Frozen Smoke that was the epilogue I'd work for her

Let me see what I can recall from V6:

Noah reads the class of 2015: I had an idea for a final pregame thread to be that Noah comes up with reads about everyone in the senior class as a sort of touching tribute to everyone to be read at graduation. It fell through because it was way too daunting and would require me to have extensively read enough pregame to have an idea for everyone, so it never happened.

Noah uses Pina Bucket to make someone feel better: I had this absurd idea that, at some point, Noah would be with someone who was sad/depressed/suicidal, and when pondering how to cheer them up, would begin by saying "You know, I have this friend. Her name is Pina..." The idea being that he'd tell a funny or weird story about her to cheer the person up, but then tie it back to something about surviving and honoring the dead or something. Most likely, Noah would be lying or making it up as he went along, but it would be so the person could cheer up and they could focus on surviving. But such a moment never occurred, so I never got to go with it.

Alba the violent player hunter: My idea for Alba was to see what would happen if a "nice girl" was forced to extremes in SOTF. I don't mean "nice" like "internet fuckboy" but a person who is cheery, happy, friendly to everyone, and tries to help anyone they can. The idea was that Alba would move around being nice and helpful to everyone, but would eventually have to commit murder. Her warped idea of "niceness" would be that she'd help everyone out by taking the responsibility of killing the violent and dangerous players. In her mind, she's helping people and doing a favor, which is why she would start to go harder and more brutal in her attempts to kill people.

This sort of materialized when she decided to abandon Bryony to go after Kimiko, with the idea that confronting Kimiko or running into another dangerous person would push her to this extreme behavior. But after running into Brendan, it didn't seem like a path for her to take. Even her first kill didn't feel like enough to push her into this idea I had, so I decided to keep Alba more as a flawed heroic figure.

Nadia the unexpected anti-hero: Nadia was supposed to spend the first part of the game being a loner and avoiding people knowing that they would likely turn on her, kill her, or worsen her chances of survival. I had the idea that she would end up doing something that betrayed her selfish nature, like rescuing someone or killing an attempted murderer, which would push her to finally ally with people she knew were decent and could help her. Then she'd finally start to defrost a bit and would ultimately be a better person by the end. It didn't happen since teaming up with Jerry Fury briefly was the antithesis of that idea, and she died before she could have a change of character.

wow i have one whole character with a finished story good thing I never shut up about him



Everett becomes a player: wow so original for a first character i know right. This was what the retconned-out invisitext was foreshadowing, but then I realized it was fucking stupid.

Everett goes full Tina: I kinda wanted Everett to find Blaine's corpse and for him to string it up outside the warehouse to scare people away but then he got rolled whoops.

Everett doesn't die: Self-explanatory. I really wanted him to find Michael again and bitch him out about Blaine 'n stuff.

wow i have one whole character with a finished story good thing I never shut up about him



Everett becomes a player: wow so original for a first character i know right. This was what the retconned-out invisitext was foreshadowing, but then I realized it was fucking stupid.

Everett goes full Tina: I kinda wanted Everett to find Blaine's corpse and for him to string it up outside the warehouse to scare people away but then he got rolled whoops.

Everett doesn't die: Self-explanatory. I really wanted him to find Michael again and bitch him out about Blaine 'n stuff.

"Everett goes full Tina: I kinda wanted Everett to find Blaine's corpse and for him to string it up outside the warehouse to scare people away but then he got rolled whoops."
before or after she burned his body?

[+] What Could Have Been

Very, very early in v6 pregame (or perhaps even in the planning stages) I had mentioned in a chat that Fiyori's ending will be a bad one.

And I am a man of my word.

Now, the question asks itself: what does a bad ending constitute in Fiyori's case? Luckily, a Fiyori Post-Game perfectly ties into this.

Fiyori's story is a story of radical change. She started the game with intense suicidal ideas, and spent most of her time before the island distant to her own feelings. As the game has progressed, Fiyori found a lust for life and is now comfortable with acting purely on her own whims and sentiments. This will lead to her 'performance' immediately after. When the terrorists pick her up, she will greet them with interest, and even spends her time with the terrorists at a very enthusiastic level.

In fact, she even seriously considers taking the AT up on their offer to join them. After all, Fiyori had never made any plans for her own future, so this would be an alluring deal. She spends the next weeks rocking back and forth, debating the cons and pros of joining them. Eventually, however, she decides against this course of action. Believing that the life as a terrorist would be too much of a hassle for her, Fiyori chooses to go back home.

There, she experiences a realization. The underlying reason for her suicidal personality had been a simple one. Fiyori was confounded by the complexities of life that awaited her, and lacking the enthusiasm for it – she had wished to avoid them by killing herself. Now, that she returns home she realizes that nothing had changed.

She still had to face the challenges of life, but now she did not only face the ones most people do (finding a career, love and home), but also the challenges one faced by winning SotF. She becomes a dark celebrity, someone branded as a monster by polite society. And because she is very unique in terms of physical appearance, it becomes difficult to hide and distance herself from SotF.

Being denied the possibility of a calm and good life, Fiyori grows bitter.

Things get worse. As she feels she needs it as a form of closure, Fiyori engages with the families of the fallen students. She takes in the many experiences – makes amends, find friends, brings peace, and creates enemies. The many bonds she finds make her suffer, however. She feels that she is becoming the torch-holder, the one survivor of the Kingman class, who shall now bear all their memories. Due to that, she feels obligated to stay alive. The possibility of suicide is unthinkable for her.

Caught between a rock and a hard place, Fiyori is unable to care for the world, but she also grows unable to leave it. Thus, she is trapped into a never-ending cycle of misery.

The last scene (from Fiyori's POV) is her boarding a plane. Once she lands, she leaves the airport undetected, and no one is able to find her anymore.

From this point on, I would like to show a bit of the World of SotF. While it is not uncommon for SotF winners to vanish from the public view, Fiyori's case becomes special. Especially because her family alarms national media, and because the circumstances of her vanishing evoke conspiracy theories.

A world-wide community forms, organized loosely online under the theme of “Where in the world is Fiyori Senay?” Further posts in the epilogue would consist of various member's blog posts – where they detail situation and places where they might have seen Fiyori, and at the same time offer us a view into how the world reacts to SotF.

Fiyori's ultimate fate, however, shall remain a mystery.

Oh yeah, I have WCHBs for my V6 kids winning:

[+] Nadia wins

This was the least developed due to the fact that Nadia was the first to die, but the idea I had was one where Nadia comes home and spends a lot of time on her own. She avoids people outside her family and possibly Rod, and a lot of it involves driving out into the desert and just sitting there in quiet contemplation. Most likely, she'd eventually have an epiphany and start creating a series of SOTF-inspired photography. Doing this allows her to process her feelings, and she sells the collection to a major museum, which gives her media attention and quite a bit of cash. She'd probably donate a good portion of the money to Cochise High School for a memorial, and then she'd leave.

She'd take the money she has left and defer her college admission a year so she can drive around the US. She'd probably break up with Rod so he doesn't feel attached to her and can pursue his Olympic dreams, but with the promise that they wouldn't cut each other out entirely. The epilogue would end with Nadia driving out of Kingman like she had promised, prepared to spend a year traveling, taking photos, and sending her work to museums, knowing that she had survived and found the added strength and courage to dive into her art in the way that resonates with her.

[+] Noah wins

I had tied Noah's story with the All About My Mother Meanwhile. The plan was that AAMM would run alongside his story, so AAMM would have continued with a lot of the major events being stretched out depending on what I could come up with, but the fight the family had before they learned of Noah's death would most likely be the end. This time, Ella would reveal that Noah was the sole survivor and the rest of the family would feel awkward about everything.

Come Epilogue, Noah would return home, and everyone would be on their best behavior around Noah. However, in his time at home, recovering from his trauma, he'd start to pick up on the signs that everyone had fought in his absence and some real dangerous stuff went down. Noah would have private moments with each of his family members, confronting his parents on their infidelity, confronting Angie on her duplicitous nature, coming to terms about his homosexuality with Arnold, and just keeping peace with Edie and Ella. At the end, Noah would have a new understanding of everyone and the world, and he'd do what he does best: make people laugh.

Noah would defer his college admission by half a year, but before he goes to school, he'd finally post to his YouTube series (the first video since he returned home). There, he'd open up about everything, then reveal a new drag character, having decided that he couldn't be Pina Bucket after the SOTF experience. His new character (unnamed because I don't have a word play for it) would still be funny, but less over-the-top and more grounded, channeling their darkness into humor. Noah would promise a new series after he gets settled at college, and sign off, prepared to move on with his life.

[+] Alba wins

This was the most developed idea I had cause I was prepared to pitch it if I made endgame. Alba would return home following the game and spend time with her family. Feeling guilt for killing 3+ people and being unable to save anyone would send her to seek the families of the people she killed and the people she was close to. She would also recognize that, being a coveted individual, she could sell her SOTF story to help her family. Thus, she would agree to a major TV interview that she would get paid handsomely for. The interview would be much harder for her to go through than she thought, but she goes through with it.

However, someone has the bright idea of tossing a molotov at her family home, burning it down and nearly killing Alba and her siblings. Because of how dangerous it is for her to stay in Kingman, Alba's parents decide to send her to relatives in Mexico while they remain in Kingman. Alba doesn't want this, but accepts it and leaves.

A year later, Alba is waiting tables at a bar in a small coastal town, lamenting the anniversary of V6 and the loss of her normal life. However, as she walks along the beach at night, she has an epiphany, paralleling the start of her time on the island. Alba decides not to live in sorrow or guilt, and resolves to get better. Most likely she'd commit to returning to America for college and becoming a pro golfer like she always wanted. Whatever she does, I'd make the ending more similar to The House of the Spirits because that book is where I got Alba's name from.